snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > Urban Legends > Medical

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 26 February 2007, 05:20 PM
Signora Del Drago's Avatar
Signora Del Drago Signora Del Drago is offline
 
Join Date: 04 November 2005
Location: Chickasha, OK
Posts: 5,311
Glasses

I apologize to snopes and to those who are discussing autism. Mine was not a deliberate hijack but was, instead, thread drift. I don't seem to be able to stop drifting. Sorry. I promise this will be my last post on the subject, and I appreciate your patience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
"Clinical depression" doesn't appear in the DSM. What is there is "major depressive disorder". It is, like most disorders in the DSM, little more than a list of symptoms, most of which are measured subjectively, whose actual cause is unknown. Those symptoms could be caused, as I said, by any number of things. It is possible that the treatment for one cause could make another cause worse. That could be why the efficacy rate for antidepressans is so low. What makes a depression "clinical" is that it was clinically diagnosed as depression (MDD). The term really is little more than a way to differentiate that sort of depression from normal depressed feelings.

I really hope your doctor already knows all that.
Our doctor saved my husband's life, so I have complete confidence in her.

Here's more for your enjoyment. Most bolding and underlining will be mine.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=11123
Quote:
Definition of Clinical depression
Clinical depression: Depression that meets the DSM-IV criteria for a depressive disorder. The term is usually used to denote depression that is not a normal, temporary mood caused by life events or grieving.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=17761
Quote:
Issued in 1993, DSM-IV is currently the latest edition (as of 2001).
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depwomenknows.cfm
Quote:
1. In major depression, sometimes referred to as unipolar or clinical depression, people have some or all of the symptoms listed below for at least 2 weeks but frequently for several months or longer. Episodes of the illness can occur once, twice, or several times in a lifetime.
2. In dysthymia, the same symptoms are present though milder and last at least 2 years. People with dysthymia are frequently lacking in zest and enthusiasm for life, living a joyless and fatigued existence that seems almost a natural outgrowth of their personalities. They also can experience major depressive episodes.
The second paragraph describes my husband to a T. His depression is definitely chronic, and he has recurring severe episodes.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/invisible.cfm
Quote:
Depression is a serious medical condition. In contrast to the normal emotional experiences of sadness, loss, or passing mood states, clinical depression is persistent and can interfere significantly with an individual's ability to function. There are three main types of depressive disorders: major depressive disorder, dysthymic disorder, and bipolar disorder (manic-depressive illness).
http://www.peaceandhealing.com/depression/clinical.asp
Quote:
Clinical depression is another term for endogenous depression. In clinical depression the affected individual displays enough signs and symptoms to meet the DSM-IV (the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) for depression. Please see DSM-IV on this website, and the author will give you his opinion of the DSM-IV text. Clinical or endogenous depression has a fairly high mortality rate.. . .
The last sentence seems to verify that my husband and his male relatives do (or in some cases, did) suffer from clinical depression since several of the relatives have committed suicide, and he gets suicidal at times.

Anyway, Sara, I don't know which one of us is more stubborn, but it appears that neither one of us is going to change our mind. You maintain that clinical depression is not a recognized disease, and I believe that it is-- mainly because it's what our doctor said and because I've found so many references to clinical depression, including the website of The National Institute of Mental Health, so we'll just have to disagree on this one. Wow! I think that's a first or, at least, one of the very few. Seems rather strange.

Last edited by Signora Del Drago; 26 February 2007 at 05:23 PM. Reason: to remove a duplicate quote
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 26 February 2007, 10:42 PM
Sara@home's Avatar
Sara@home Sara@home is offline
 
Join Date: 18 March 2004
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 12,468
Default

I know all that. I assure you that there is no single illness called "clinical depression". Like most "disorders" in the DSM, it is nothing more than a collection of symptoms. "Clinical depression" means that there the doctor has determined that the cause of the depression is not merely unhappiness over life events. The physiological cause for depression varies from person to person.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 26 February 2007, 11:18 PM
rhiandmoi's Avatar
rhiandmoi rhiandmoi is offline
 
Join Date: 27 July 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 12,754
Default

I know it is much more convenient to do multiple vaccines in a single day, and I know I had all the multi vacs and didn't die, but I am hoping that if/when I have kids, I have a ped that would allow me to do them separately. And to delay some of them until the tyke has a chance to fatten up. I think it is a little much to be injecting newborns with HebB vaccine. I am not against vaccinations, but I think the kid should have a chance to be like 15lbs before starting them.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 27 February 2007, 12:12 AM
inkrose115's Avatar
inkrose115 inkrose115 is offline
 
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
I know all that. I assure you that there is no single illness called "clinical depression". Like most "disorders" in the DSM, it is nothing more than a collection of symptoms. "Clinical depression" means that there the doctor has determined that the cause of the depression is not merely unhappiness over life events. The physiological cause for depression varies from person to person.
I could have sworn that 'clinical depression' is not an disease per say. It is an illness in the sense that it has an organic cause, and is much different from merely 'being depressed'. But depression can have many causes and from person to person can vary greatly. The symptoms and causes given on the links mentioned seem to vary so greatly that it doesn't seem like a set disease. Reading the links only seemed to blur the line for me, and made it more difficult to figure things out. From what I read and what I know, I have the impression that clinical depression is a series of symptoms that can have man causes grouped under the same term.

According to JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association)

Quote:
For depression, or any other condition, to be termed "clinical" it must reach criteria which are generally accepted by clinicians. When symptoms last two weeks or more, and are so severe that they interfere with daily living, one can be said to be suffering from clinical depression. Using DSM-IV-TR terminology, someone with a major depressive disorder can, by definition, be said to be suffering from clinical depression.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 27 February 2007, 12:19 AM
Sara@home's Avatar
Sara@home Sara@home is offline
 
Join Date: 18 March 2004
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 12,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkrose115 View Post
From what I read and what I know, I have the impression that clinical depression is a series of symptoms that can have man causes grouped under the same term.
"Man causes"? Freudian slip?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 27 February 2007, 12:23 AM
inkrose115's Avatar
inkrose115 inkrose115 is offline
 
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
"Man causes"? Freudian slip?
I swear I meant to say 'many', I swear that's what I meant to say!

As for whether or not it was a freudian slip... can we debate this later?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 06 March 2007, 10:39 PM
Judecat's Avatar
Judecat Judecat is offline
 
Join Date: 24 January 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 718
Default

I think one of the causes of the 20 year "autism epidemic" is actually the looser definitions of austism. Lately I've been hearing a lot of theory (from my MIL's Psyciatric journal updates mostly) that my mind is simplifying as saying sever adhd might be mild autism. Sort of narrowing the range of noral and wideing the range of abnoral. And it seems to me that a lot of what in my childhood were considered behavior problems are now considered illnesses. Not just with autism, ADHD, bi polar, etc. While on the one hand this making it easier for someone who really needs help to accept asking for and getting help, it may also being applying un need lables to anyone out side the rapidly narrowing normal range.
I am not saying there is no such thing as mental illness, or behavior illnesses, or mis wired brains, I am saying that some people might be able to get along fine without the lables.
When I was 10 I was a rotten kid with a bad attitude, when I was 20 it was maybe add, when I was 30 it was bi polar, and lately my MIL's assistant/associate/resident/whatever/ is making noises about aspergers. WTF, I'm 53 years old, so what does the name of it matter, I'm not taking whatever meds she's pushing. Treatment for ADHD made me really schitzo, and aggrivated my "tic disorder", lithium messed up my blood pressure, and Depocote and Welbutrin made me Pscho enought to black out and try to stab people (my boss and my husband).
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07 March 2007, 04:59 AM
DevilBunny's Avatar
DevilBunny DevilBunny is offline
 
Join Date: 20 February 2002
Location: Newbury, UK
Posts: 1,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
I know all that. I assure you that there is no single illness called "clinical depression". Like most "disorders" in the DSM, it is nothing more than a collection of symptoms. "Clinical depression" means that there the doctor has determined that the cause of the depression is not merely unhappiness over life events. The physiological cause for depression varies from person to person.
That doesn't just apply to mental disorders, though, does it? I could say that there's no single illness called 'anaemia', because that's also just a collection of symptoms that can have widely different causes. Or, oh, asthma, or a whole load of other illnesses.

What was your point when you started this, again?
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07 March 2007, 08:31 PM
inkrose115's Avatar
inkrose115 inkrose115 is offline
 
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilBunny View Post
That doesn't just apply to mental disorders, though, does it? I could say that there's no single illness called 'anaemia', because that's also just a collection of symptoms that can have widely different causes. Or, oh, asthma, or a whole load of other illnesses.
That is true. But it does make it easier for a Doctor to explain what's wrong with a child to a parent, for example. Then the doctor can worry about the causes and appropriate treament, and hopefully keep the parent/patient informed and up to date.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 08 March 2007, 12:37 AM
Sara@home's Avatar
Sara@home Sara@home is offline
 
Join Date: 18 March 2004
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 12,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilBunny View Post
That doesn't just apply to mental disorders, though, does it? I could say that there's no single illness called 'anaemia', because that's also just a collection of symptoms that can have widely different causes. Or, oh, asthma, or a whole load of other illnesses.

What was your point when you started this, again?
My point, since you seem to have not comprehended what I wrote, is that there is no illness called "clinical depression" and multiple causes -- and thus different approapriate treatments -- for the condition that doctors diagnose as depression. It is the act of a doctor diagnosing the depression that makes it "clinical".

I can't address the other illnesses because I don't know about those ones you mention. One thing I don't do is comment on things about which I know nothing. But I don't know that I would bother to comment even if I did know something because I fail to see what your point is in bringing it up. If, as you say, the those other illnesses are also collections of behaviors or symptoms with no way of objectively determining existence or cause, that doesn't change anything I've said, does it?
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 08 March 2007, 07:02 AM
DevilBunny's Avatar
DevilBunny DevilBunny is offline
 
Join Date: 20 February 2002
Location: Newbury, UK
Posts: 1,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
My point, since you seem to have not comprehended what I wrote, is that there is no illness called "clinical depression" and multiple causes -- and thus different approapriate treatments -- for the condition that doctors diagnose as depression. It is the act of a doctor diagnosing the depression that makes it "clinical".
Yes yes yes, I'm perfectly well aware of that.

But it has nothing to do with Signora del Drago's original point that A broken or hurt brain is no worse than a broken or hurt any-other-body part. Which is an interesting discussion point that seems to have been completely overlooked in the subsequent discussion as to whether depression, or indeed any other illness, is a symptom or a cause.

Do people regard people with disabled brains (and yes, I would regard someone with major depressive disorder as having a disabled brain, whatever the cause of that disablement) differently to people with other disabled body parts? Is that an issue in the vaccination/autism debate?

From this discussion I'd have to say 'yes', unless you would also jump all over someone talking about, say, anaemia, because it's important to tell someone who's spent years dealing with a loved one whose life it has endangered that it's not an illness, it's a symptom.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09 March 2007, 12:55 AM
Sara@home's Avatar
Sara@home Sara@home is offline
 
Join Date: 18 March 2004
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 12,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilBunny View Post
Yes yes yes, I'm perfectly well aware of that.

But it has nothing to do with Signora del Drago's original point that A broken or hurt brain is no worse than a broken or hurt any-other-body part. Which is an interesting discussion point that seems to have been completely overlooked in the subsequent discussion as to whether depression, or indeed any other illness, is a symptom or a cause.

Do people regard people with disabled brains (and yes, I would regard someone with major depressive disorder as having a disabled brain, whatever the cause of that disablement) differently to people with other disabled body parts? Is that an issue in the vaccination/autism debate?

From this discussion I'd have to say 'yes', unless you would also jump all over someone talking about, say, anaemia, because it's important to tell someone who's spent years dealing with a loved one whose life it has endangered that it's not an illness, it's a symptom.
I'm sorry but I am completely lost. I have no idea why you are ranting at me or what your point is.

I will respond to the one part that I do understand: Of course people consider those with disabled brains differently to people with other disabled boy parts. Other than that, I'm completely lost and, once again, I have no idea what anaemia is.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 09 March 2007, 03:19 AM
landmammal landmammal is offline
 
Join Date: 19 February 2006
Location: California
Posts: 972
Default

Anemia, spelled the UK way.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09 March 2007, 06:54 AM
DevilBunny's Avatar
DevilBunny DevilBunny is offline
 
Join Date: 20 February 2002
Location: Newbury, UK
Posts: 1,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
I will respond to the one part that I do understand: Of course people consider those with disabled brains differently to people with other disabled body parts.
Why?

Devil'In the Details'Bunny
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09 March 2007, 07:18 AM
Judecat's Avatar
Judecat Judecat is offline
 
Join Date: 24 January 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 718
Default

The difference between anemia and depression is that when you go to the doctor and tell him your symptoms he doesn't have to just "guess" that what you have is anemia -- there is an actual test, with an objective result, that if you have the test given by 16 different doctors you are still gonna get one result --you are anemic.
There is no symple objective test for mental illness at this time. No ex ray or blood test or anything exept telling your doctor the symptoms and having them try to figure them out.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09 March 2007, 06:20 PM
inkrose115's Avatar
inkrose115 inkrose115 is offline
 
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,059
Default

I checked on Medline, which for future reference is a great place to look stuff up you need defined for the layman.

Quote:
Anemia:
1 : a condition in which the blood is deficient in red blood cells, in hemoglobin, or in total volume.
It's a pretty broad definition then.
Of course there is also seperate definitions, for example:
Quote:
Nutritional Anemia: anemia (as hypochromic anemia) that results from inadequate intake or assimilation of materials essential for the production of red blood cells and hemoglobin -- called also deficiency anemia
and
Quote:
aplastic Anemia: anemia that is characterized by defective function of the blood-forming organs (as the bone marrow) and is caused by toxic agents (as chemicals or X-rays) or is idiopathic in origin -- called also hypoplastic anemia

Quote:
Clinical Depression: : depression of sufficient severity to be brought to the attention of a physician and to require treatment; specifically : MAJOR DEPRESSIVE DISORDER
Quote:
Major Depressive Disorder: a mood disorder having a clinical course involving one or more episodes of serious psychological depression that last two or more weeks each, do not have intervening episodes of mania or hypomania, and are characterized by a loss of interest or pleasure in almost all activities and by some or all of disturbances of appetite, sleep, or psychomotor functioning, a decrease in energy, difficulties in thinking or making decisions, loss of self-esteem or feelings of guilt, and suicidal thoughts or attempts
So, I then look up 'disorder'
Quote:
: an abnormal physical or mental condition
'Ailment'
Quote:
: a bodily disorder or chronic disease
I look up disease, which is linked to
'illness'
Quote:
: an unhealthy condition of body or mind
'And sickness'
Quote:
1 : the condition of being ill : ill health
2 : a specific disease
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09 March 2007, 11:17 PM
Sara@home's Avatar
Sara@home Sara@home is offline
 
Join Date: 18 March 2004
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 12,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilBunny View Post
Why?

Devil'In the Details'Bunny
I don't know. Ask them.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 10 March 2007, 12:55 PM
Mickey is a gyrl's Avatar
Mickey is a gyrl Mickey is a gyrl is offline
 
Join Date: 12 January 2006
Location: SE Georgia
Posts: 6,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Embra View Post
Here in the UK the main vaccination/autism scare relates to the triple Measles/Mumps/Rubella ("MMR") jag that kids get at (I don't know, 1-2 years?). The argument is not to do with mercury (as far as I know) - I don't know if anyone who's familiar with the arguments can follow up for me and describe the theory (I know, I know, "do my homework": but I would probably make a hash of explaining it as a non-scientist).
I remember reading a story in the Washington Post Magazine a number of years ago where a boy was severely disabled due to the MMR vaccine. IIRC, the MMR vaccine caused those problems primarily in boys, and it was rare, but it did occur.

That may be where the idea that the MMR vaccine caused autism comes from. Autism is being correctly diagnosed more now, but this boy didn't fall under the ASD somehow. But considering the male:female ratio of autism, and how it was primarily boys that became disabled due to the vaccine, it makes sense in a way that people would think boy + MMR vaccine = autism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glass papaya View Post
I agree Mizzie. It's especially frustrating when the "cause" seems to jump around year after year. I remember when the pertussis part of the DTP vaccine was suspected; people started requesting vaccines without the pertussis component. Result? Lots of babies got whooping cough, which is a horrible disease. Then thimerosal, now MMR, what next?
I had problems when I had my first DTP vaccine. Apparently, I stopped breathing when I was at home later that night. I've come out of that lucky, apparently, but I was never given another pertussis inoculation after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
The only vaccine I am "against" is the HPV one--and it's not that I'm even out and out against it--I just don't feel enough study has been done on it to warrant a "YOU MUST HAVE THIS!!!!1111!!" cry that has been going on.

We vaccinate, fully. What I find disturbing is that it seems those who won't do it because of some fear of autism, makes them sound like they don't want a "developmentally disabled" (mentally or other disability) child (well, they would use the R word, but I won't)....

It's like they want that perfect child and will blame anything that causes the imperfection.


(and yeah, no cites either, but I've spoken enough about the weirdos I know, so please believe me as well. It almost seems as though they fear the "R" word)...

And they don't get that they are putting themselves, their child and everyone around them at a bigger risk for not vaccinating.

~~EB
Funnily enough, when my mom spoke to her doctor the other day, he said that many doctors refuse to administer the HPV vaccine (he refuses to give it, actually), because it only protects against a couple of the strains that have been linked to cervical cancer, and also is not effective in preventing the 200+ strains of HPV. Also, they don't know the long-term effects yet, and the vaccine only has a 5-year lifespan after injection. So imagine having to go through those rounds of shots every 5 years until you're married/have a life-term partner, and both of you are tested for HPV, AND neither of you cheat, etc etc.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 10 March 2007, 09:51 PM
Sara@home's Avatar
Sara@home Sara@home is offline
 
Join Date: 18 March 2004
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 12,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey is a gyrl View Post
Funnily enough, when my mom spoke to her doctor the other day, he said that many doctors refuse to administer the HPV vaccine (he refuses to give it, actually), because it only protects against a couple of the strains that have been linked to cervical cancer, and also is not effective in preventing the 200+ strains of HPV. Also, they don't know the long-term effects yet, and the vaccine only has a 5-year lifespan after injection. So imagine having to go through those rounds of shots every 5 years until you're married/have a life-term partner, and both of you are tested for HPV, AND neither of you cheat, etc etc.
From the CDC website:
Quote:
What does the vaccine not protect against?
Because the vaccine does not protect against all types of HPV, it will not prevent all cases of cervical cancer or genital warts. About 30% of cervical cancers will not be prevented by the vaccine, so it will be important for women to continue getting screened for cervical cancer (regular Pap tests). Also, the vaccine does not prevent about 10% of genital warts—nor will it prevent other sexually transmitted infections (STIs). So it will still be important for sexually active adults to reduce exposure to HPV and other STIs.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 10 March 2007, 10:04 PM
DevilBunny's Avatar
DevilBunny DevilBunny is offline
 
Join Date: 20 February 2002
Location: Newbury, UK
Posts: 1,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
I don't know. Ask them.
Ah. The 'of course' in your post suggested you were one of 'them', so I hoped you might know Never mind.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.