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  #21  
Old 25 February 2007, 03:50 AM
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Hillary K. Hillary K. is offline
 
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No, they did not. I was born with a brain that functions differently than other peoples, most likely due to the wiring being organized in a differing manner than most people.

Also, many people with ASDs find this theory offensive, as it implies that we are somehow defective and brain-damaged.
http://neurodiversity.com/autism_vac...ntroversy.html is a good resource to look up more info.

Hillary "lets focus on helping people with ASDs instead" K.
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  #22  
Old 25 February 2007, 03:52 AM
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Sorry, Hillary, are you replying to me?

I agree with you wholeheartedly, BTW. I in no way consider my son defective or brain damaged. The only value to his "diagnosis" is that it gets him some support at school. I delight in his differences. I'm sorry if I gave you a different impression.
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  #23  
Old 25 February 2007, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by lynnejanet View Post
Sorry, Hillary, are you replying to me?

I agree with you wholeheartedly, BTW. I in no way consider my son defective or brain damaged. The only value to his "diagnosis" is that it gets him some support at school. I delight in his differences. I'm sorry if I gave you a different impression.

Not to anyone in particular. Just the whole bone-headed idea that mercury poisoning causes autism.

Hillary "vaccinated and will vaccinate" K.
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  #24  
Old 25 February 2007, 03:05 PM
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Signora Del Drago Signora Del Drago is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnejanet View Post
Signora, my mom babysat a little girl who was gravely harmed by vaccinations, too. This was about 25 years ago. . .As you can imagine, it was devastating for the family, and they never attempted to gain any publicity. Sick Kid's hospital concluded that they couldn't directly blame the vaccine for the reaction, but they acknowledged that there did not seem to be any other causitive factor.
This is similar to the case about which I posted. No definite proof that the vaccine caused the baby's death, but no other cause could be found. The baby was in excellent health--strong heart and lungs, normal weight gain, etc. The night of the day she was vaccinated, she developed a fever and started going into convulsions. She died in the ER. The reason my friend wanted publicity was for an investigation that might help somebody in the future.
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
The only vaccine I am "against" is the HPV one--and it's not that I'm even out and out against it--I just don't feel enough study has been done on it to warrant a "YOU MUST HAVE THIS!!!!1111!!" cry that has been going on. . .
I feel the same way about that one. We don't know enough, yet, about long-term effects.

After I posted here, we spent the rest of the day with my son and his family. My daughter-in-law and I were talking about this, and she said before the pediatrician would give her sons their "baby shots," she and my son had to read a lot of patient information sheets, and one of them had to sign permission for the doctor to give the vaccinations. When my children were little, we weren't given any information and the vaccines were just given as a matter of course. Sometimes, I think too much information is worse than none at all. She doesn't have to worry about the HPV vaccine since she doesn't have any daughters.

I'm so sad for everyone who has had a child to die for whatever reason. Parents think they're doing everything they can do to help their children, then one of the things that is supposed to keep them healthy apparently kills them (in extremely rare cases, I know). How awful is that? I can't imagine the agony, but as bad as thinking about all of this is making me feel, it must be almost unbearable.

ETA: I'm not sure why the term "brain damaged" meets with such rancor.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...y/brain+damage
Quote:
brain damage

NOUN:

Injury to the brain that is caused by various conditions, such as head trauma, inadequate oxygen supply, infection, or intracranial hemorrhage, and that may be associated with a behavioral or functional abnormality.
For instance, my husband suffers from severe clinical depression. Wouldn't that be considered some form of brain damage, for whatever reason, perhaps wired differently from people who don't have the same disease? It certainly is a behavioral and a functional abnormality. I would assume that most people wouldn't use the term "brain damaged" in a derogatory manner any more than they would use the term "diabetic" or refer to a person with a broken leg in that manner. Of course, there are those who would, but I hope they are not in the majority, and they would most likely act the same way toward anyone who was different from them. A broken or hurt brain is no worse than a broken or hurt any-other-body part. I do understand how people so afflicted might feel, though. My wheelchair-bound son-in-law has just recently used the word "disabled" in reference to himself. That word used to infuriate him, even though he is, in fact, disabled. Very disabled. On the other hand, my friend's grandson was in a wreck and suffered a closed-head injury and is brain damaged. Fortunately, he made a very good recovery and only has slight problems, but he didn't take offense at the term. I suppose it all depends on the person's general outlook.

Last edited by Signora Del Drago; 25 February 2007 at 03:24 PM.
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  #25  
Old 25 February 2007, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Signora Del Drago View Post
For instance, my husband suffers from severe clinical depression. Wouldn't that be considered some form of brain damage, for whatever reason, perhaps wired differently from people who don't have the same disease? It certainly is a behavioral and a functional abnormality.
Depression is a symptom, not a disorder. "Clinical depression" is the lay term used to describe depression as opposed to unhappiness about things one is forced to deal with in life....or should be. The cause, or more correctly, causes of "clinical depression" are truly unknown and will vary from person to person. Some people's depression is caused by brain damage, be it from a stroke, an accident, FAS, etc.. Other people have depression as a result of genetic predisposition; his/her brain isn't damaged, it simply doesn't work the way we have come to expect without really knowing if that depression is "abnormal" or not. Other people have depression as a side effect either of the use of certain chemicals (prescribed or otherwise) or of another medical condition. And certainly some people have depression because of psychological reason, for intance as a result of prolonged stress or a feeling of helplessness.

There are more possible causes of depression -- alergies, malnutrition, inadequate exposure to sunlight. Most don't involve brain damage.
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  #26  
Old 25 February 2007, 08:55 PM
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Signora Del Drago Signora Del Drago is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
Depression is a symptom, not a disorder. "Clinical depression" is the lay term used to describe depression as opposed to unhappiness about things one is forced to deal with in life....or should be. The cause, or more correctly, causes of "clinical depression" are truly unknown and will vary from person to person. Some people's depression is caused by brain damage, be it from a stroke, an accident, FAS, etc.. Other people have depression as a result of genetic predisposition; his/her brain isn't damaged, it simply doesn't work the way we have come to expect without really knowing if that depression is "abnormal" or not. Other people have depression as a side effect either of the use of certain chemicals (prescribed or otherwise) or of another medical condition. And certainly some people have depression because of psychological reason, for intance as a result of prolonged stress or a feeling of helplessness.

There are more possible causes of depression -- alergies, malnutrition, inadequate exposure to sunlight. Most don't involve brain damage.
Of course you're right that most causes of depression don't involve brain damage. I think I worded it wrong. Even though it isn't usually caused by brain damage, clinical depression is still a behavioral and a functional abnormality related to brain activity.

I think clinical depression is more that just a symptom, though. It is an illness which has its own set of symptoms. Not to say that depression cannot be a symptom of an underlying illness, but clinical depression, in and of itself, is an illness. That is according to our doctor (My husband and I see the same doctor.), to various articles I've read and to several websites. Bolding in any quotes below is mine.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=60917
Quote:
A depressive disorder is an illness that involves the body, mood, and thoughts. It affects the way a person eats and sleeps, the way one feels about oneself, and the way one thinks about things. A depressive disorder is not the same as a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better. Without treatment, symptoms can last for weeks, months, or years. Appropriate treatment, however, can help most people who suffer from depression.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...y=60917&page=2
Quote:
Depressive disorders come in different forms, just as is the case with other illnesses such as heart disease. . .
Major depression is manifested by a combination of symptoms. . .
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...y=60917&page=3
Quote:
Some types of depression run in families, suggesting that a biological vulnerability can be inherited. . .
As is the case with my husband. His father and two of his uncles committed suicide. Several nephews have made unsuccessful attempts. He is often suicidal, and I keep an eye on him. I confronted him in the mid-1980s when my friend's husband literally blew his brains out. I told him to either get some help or to get out of my life because I wasn't going through what Joyce was facing. Then I held my breath. I was pretty sure he loved me enough to get help, but still. . .Nowadays, when I see that he's getting really down, we talk about it. I've lost track of how many different meds he's tried. Some of them work for a while then stop working.
Quote:
Whether inherited or not, major depressive disorder is often associated with changes in brain structures or brain function.
Well, I have rambled on much too long, so I won't quote from all six pages of this particular article, or from other sites since they all say about the same thing. I just wanted to point out that clinical depression is more than merely a symptom. It is a recognized illness and often involves changes in the brain.
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  #27  
Old 25 February 2007, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Signora Del Drago View Post
I just wanted to point out that clinical depression is more than merely a symptom. It is a recognized illness and often involves changes in the brain.
No, it's just a symptom. The question is which of the many possible causes is it a symptom of. When you know that you have a better chance of treating it effectively...and no making it worse with the wrong treatment.

You might be surprised to find out that the link between depression and suicide isn't as cut and dry as it might seem. The genes they have (tentively) identified as connected to depression are different than the genes connected to suicide. Wow. I went to find a link and I found this recent update. I wish I could find the link -- saved on another computer, I think -- that discusses the fact that researchers have not been able to directly link suicide and depression. Odd, isn't it? Seems counterintuitive.
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  #28  
Old 25 February 2007, 11:28 PM
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Signora Del Drago Signora Del Drago is offline
 
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Well, I don't know whether the big guy gets depressed when he becomes suicidal or if he becomes suicidal because he's depressed, but either way it's very difficult to cope with. It could be coincidence that his male relatives who committed suicide also suffered from depression. Maybe one of these days, there will be a definitive answer. Hope so, anyway. A lot of people need one.

In the meantime, the next time I see my doctor, I'll be sure to tell her that she's mistaken when she says clinical depression is an illness and not just a symptom.

Cheers! (and hugs)
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  #29  
Old 26 February 2007, 12:09 AM
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Okay, so we're not thinking that mercury causes autism. But it can't be healthy, can it?
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  #30  
Old 26 February 2007, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Signora Del Drago View Post
In the meantime, the next time I see my doctor, I'll be sure to tell her that she's mistaken when she says clinical depression is an illness and not just a symptom.
"Clinical depression" doesn't appear in the DSM. What is there is "major depressive disorder". It is, like most disorders in the DSM, little more than a list of symptoms, most of which are measured subjectively, whose actual cause is unknown. Those symptoms could be caused, as I said, by any number of things. It is possible that the treatment for one cause could make another cause worse. That could be why the efficacy rate for antidepressans is so low. What makes a depression "clinical" is that it was clinically diagnosed as depression (MDD). The term really is little more than a way to differentiate that sort of depression from normal depressed feelings.

I really hope your doctor already knows all that.
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  #31  
Old 26 February 2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post
Okay, so we're not thinking that mercury causes autism. But it can't be healthy, can it?
Mercury used to be the only 'cure' for syphillis. If given in very early stages it could sometime kill the bug off, which was why it was considered a cure. Bot mostly, it was useless, and if the syphillis didn't rot your brain the mercury would kill you. let's just say that it was a very painful way to die. Unhealthy is kind of an understatement.
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  #32  
Old 26 February 2007, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post
Okay, so we're not thinking that mercury causes autism. But it can't be healthy, can it?
I see no reason to exclude mercury as a trigger for the gene found related to autism. I will continue to consider that to be a possibility until shown that I'm wrong.

Mercury is like lead; it poisons people. Why on earth would anyone think it was a good idea to inject into newborns or pregnant women or to give 8 (give or take) shots containing it in one day to toddlers?
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  #33  
Old 26 February 2007, 01:39 AM
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There is more methyl mercury in a can of tuna, on average, than ethyl mercury in all the childhood vaccines before thimerosal was removed. Without a preservative, multidose vials are harder to make.

Thimerosal may be something we are better off without, but why mothers protest against it and not tuna manufacturers I do not know.

Sister "and if I go really crazy, I'll just say the tuna did it" Ray
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  #34  
Old 26 February 2007, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
There is more methyl mercury in a can of tuna, on average, than ethyl mercury in all the childhood vaccines before thimerosal was removed. Without a preservative, multidose vials are harder to make.

Thimerosal may be something we are better off without, but why mothers protest against it and not tuna manufacturers I do not know.

Sister "and if I go really crazy, I'll just say the tuna did it" Ray
The amount of mercury in Tuna is not good either. If I was pregnant I'd stop eating it. As of right now though, I'm not giving up my samoln or my tuna. I need the protein, and I regulate how much I eat so I don't OD.
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  #35  
Old 26 February 2007, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
There is more methyl mercury in a can of tuna, on average, than ethyl mercury in all the childhood vaccines before thimerosal was removed.
And consumer organizations have been warning that pregnant women and young children should not eat albacore for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
Without a preservative, multidose vials are harder to make.
Harder? Or more expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
Thimerosal may be something we are better off without, but why mothers protest against it and not tuna manufacturers I do not know.
Because they don't have to feed their children tuna in order to protect them from deadly illnesses or enroll them in school.

And canned light tuna is considered low in mercury; it is only the white or albacore that is dangerously high.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
"and if I go really crazy, I'll just say the tuna did it"
Glib but the fact remains that heavy metal poisoning can cause psychosis and "mood disorders".

Last edited by Sara@home; 26 February 2007 at 02:27 AM.
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  #36  
Old 26 February 2007, 02:47 AM
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There are some aspects of heavy metal poisoning, especially lead, that mimic mental disorders, but a lot of other behavior associated with it is not at all like mental illness.

Also, the tuna example was merely to say that although tuna has mercury in it, no one says tuna causes autism. Even the people who promote the GF/CF diet for autism, which personally I have a low opinion of, will feed their children tuna. It was trying to be a comparison that said vaccines are a safe target, as there is more distrust of them.

While I think harder is a relative term, more expensive can be a factor, because many clinics that offer low cost vaccines can't offer all of them anymore, and as a result there are less who can get them. I also think that this movement is just another factor in the people who promote chelation as a cure for everything.

Sara, I have to ask - do you think there is any way to objectively determine whether a mental illness is present?

Sister "honestly curious" Ray
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  #37  
Old 26 February 2007, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
Sara, I have to ask - do you think there is any way to objectively determine whether a mental illness is present?
I believe the term "mental illness" is meaningless. Some objectively diagnosable disorders can cause behavioral or psychiatric symptoms. Some of those are neurological disorders, some aren't.

ETA: But virtually all the disorders people call "mental illness" are physiological brain functioning disorders caused by something or the other. Some are due to psychological trauma but I suspect that there will be found a biological link to many of those cases, as in the genetic connection to PTSD. In those cases, the trigger for the gene was the trauma.

Last edited by Sara@home; 26 February 2007 at 03:28 AM.
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  #38  
Old 26 February 2007, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
This 2003 article says 3:1 or 4:1, depending on the researcher. The article also discusses the idea that there may be a gene related to autism on the Y chromosome; it isn't unusual to find that certain genetic traits are controlled by more than one gene, requiring a sort of interaction of possibilities involving genes and triggers. OTOH, it also discusses that the idea that autism presents differently in girls and that female autism is under diagnosed and underreported.

It would be nice if they could first identify what autism is so they could definitively diagnose it instead of relying on behavioral symptoms which are evaluated by subjective measures and could have a number of causes.

It's more likely to be on the X chromosome than the Y. Otherwise there would be no autistic or asperger females. X-chromsome disorders are more common in males because males are XY and need only 1 copy of the faulty gene. Females are XX and would need 2 copies of the faulty gene if the trait is to show up. My friends had genetic counselling after having a severely autistic son. They wanted another child and were offered abortion of male embryos due to the high risk (the son is almost unmanageable, very intelligent, unaware of danger, unable to speak and impossible to reason with).

This is an over-simplification as there are many other combinations of X and Y, including chimeras, and because the faulty gene is probably part of a cascade of genes in which several others might need to be faulty if the trait is going to manifest.

There were studies of 2 types of vaccine that concluded MMR was implicated rather than a different vacine. This study was seriously flawed because it compared MMR to a vaccine given at 4 months old when signs of developmental disorders such as autism haven't yet manifested.
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  #39  
Old 26 February 2007, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
Sister "and if I go really crazy, I'll just say the tuna did it" Ray
Then people will say, "I knew there was something fishy about that girl!"


^Sister Ray thwacking me with a tuna.
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  #40  
Old 26 February 2007, 02:17 PM
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Okay, I read this one as, "Vacations caused autism".
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