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  #21  
Old 01 February 2007, 06:46 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by PallasAthena View Post
Ryda this is waaay off topic, but I'm curious. By pro-ana, you mean sites to help people heal from anorexia right? Wouldn't that be neg-ana? Is the "thinspiration" tongue in cheek?

Having lived with a pretty severely anorexic roommate, I think terms like that would do more harm than good. Am I way off base here?

Oh, no.....Pro-ana sites are sites designed for people with anorexia who have no intention of being treated for it. They offer thinspiration, photos, sometimes manipulated, of really, really skinny people, as well as photos of "fat" people, they trade tips on what kinds of foods have the fewest calories (celerey and mustard are an ana's best friend), report their various techniquest for being, remaining, and hiding their anorexia, etc.

Basically, it is a support community for maintaining your anorexia (until you die from it, of course).
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  #22  
Old 01 February 2007, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Oh, no.....Pro-ana sites are sites designed for people with anorexia who have no intention of being treated for it. They offer thinspiration, photos, sometimes manipulated, of really, really skinny people, as well as photos of "fat" people, they trade tips on what kinds of foods have the fewest calories (celerey and mustard are an ana's best friend), report their various techniquest for being, remaining, and hiding their anorexia, etc.

Basically, it is a support community for maintaining your anorexia (until you die from it, of course).
I had a feeling that was the case and I was hoping against hope that you'd say it wasn't. Anorexia is such a terrible disease. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

I won't say I wish someone would shut those sites down because I really believe in freedom of speech even for things I dislike.

...

But I really wish someone would shut those sites down and get those women and men the help they need.

Watching someone close to you die (which is basically what you do if you know someone with anorexia) is a terrible thing.
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  #23  
Old 01 February 2007, 06:57 PM
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DawnStorm DawnStorm is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
And let's not even get started on the button-up shirts. I cannot find a female button-up shirt that isn't either a tent, or gapes across the breasts. However, a men's med-large does just find for D cup tits.

I feel your pain! I tend to look for stylish pull over tops instead of blouses.

Dawn--3D--Storm
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  #24  
Old 01 February 2007, 07:01 PM
dfresh dfresh is offline
 
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Hmm...so by my calculations, based on mom saying she was a size 3 when she first got married, at age 23, she must be...about 143 years old. She still looks great for her age, though.
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  #25  
Old 01 February 2007, 07:06 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by PallasAthena View Post
Watching someone close to you die (which is basically what you do if you know someone with anorexia) is a terrible thing.


Well, FWIW, many of the, ummm, what's the word, yeah, service providers did pull them after this flaired up in the US media a few years ago.

This is an example of the more tame version that exists now: Rawboned

But, yeah. You never really get fixed. No matter what.
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  #26  
Old 01 February 2007, 07:48 PM
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Tarquin Farquart Tarquin Farquart is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Tarquin:

It isn't just the models. We know that. But it is a place to start.

And anecdote certainly does not equal data, but I recall quite clearly the middle-school girls pouring over vogue during the advent of the heroin-chic age and seeing most of us developing eating disorders by the end of the year. Those still photos are a great source of what the pro-ana sites call "thinspiration". Really, take a look at a few of those sites and see exactly where they cull their ideals from.

Is that how it starts? No. It starts from trauma, low self-esteem, PTSD, all sorts of things. But it does contribute and extend the life of the disorder.
I do agree with what you say about low-esteem. I just think focusing on the model aspect is only a tiny part of the problem, there are other factors that I think have more impact.

Besides, were instances of anorexia higher during the heroin chic period, for example?
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  #27  
Old 01 February 2007, 08:13 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart View Post
I do agree with what you say about low-esteem. I just think focusing on the model aspect is only a tiny part of the problem, there are other factors that I think have more impact.

Besides, were instances of anorexia higher during the heroin chic period, for example?
Higher than????

I dunno. My personal experience with the disorder and with others with the disorder would suggest that it isn't that small of an effect. It's the standard we are sold, and, so, when attempting to regain control and maintain a perfect facade, it's that standard to which we reach.

It is only one step in a really, really large battle, but I do think it is an important one.
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  #28  
Old 01 February 2007, 08:21 PM
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Tarquin Farquart Tarquin Farquart is offline
 
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Higher than????

I dunno. My personal experience with the disorder and with others with the disorder would suggest that it isn't that small of an effect. It's the standard we are sold, and, so, when attempting to regain control and maintain a perfect facade, it's that standard to which we reach.

It is only one step in a really, really large battle, but I do think it is an important one.
What I meant was I don't think the thinness or otherwise of models causes more anorexica.

I think the models are merely the symptom, rather than the cause.
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  #29  
Old 01 February 2007, 08:38 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart View Post
What I meant was I don't think the thinness or otherwise of models causes more anorexica.

I think the models are merely the symptom, rather than the cause.
See, that, to me, is but another manifestation of our dependence on dichotomy to the exclusion of all else.

Models are neither the symptom nor the cause. They are both. They feed and are fed by anorexic standards. Although, the spread anorexia did conincide with the rise of thinner fashion models and the increased use of models in print advertising in the 20s. Prior to that, anorexia did exist is small populations, normally in those obsessed by religion who desired to prove their purity and link with the divine. The first recorded case I remember was in the 17th century. In addition, and I wish I was in my library, but I recall an anthropological observation about a population sequestered from modern media, in which anorexia was non-existant. I THINK it was in New Guinea, but I can't remember the text that cited it, much less the details of the article. Anyway, with the introduction of western print and televised media, anorexia came into existance, and had affected something like 30% of the adolescent female population within a year.

I.E., there is more evidence suggesting a close link than there is evidence suggesting no link.

I'll have to see if I can find that cite. it was interesting.
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  #30  
Old 01 February 2007, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
See, that, to me, is but another manifestation of our dependence on dichotomy to the exclusion of all else.

Models are neither the symptom nor the cause. They are both. They feed and are fed by anorexic standards. Although, the spread anorexia did conincide with the rise of thinner fashion models and the increased use of models in print advertising in the 20s. Prior to that, anorexia did exist is small populations, normally in those obsessed by religion who desired to prove their purity and link with the divine. The first recorded case I remember was in the 17th century. In addition, and I wish I was in my library, but I recall an anthropological observation about a population sequestered from modern media, in which anorexia was non-existant. I THINK it was in New Guinea, but I can't remember the text that cited it, much less the details of the article. Anyway, with the introduction of western print and televised media, anorexia came into existance, and had affected something like 30% of the adolescent female population within a year.

I.E., there is more evidence suggesting a close link than there is evidence suggesting no link.

I'll have to see if I can find that cite. it was interesting.

I bet it was interesting. Please do post it if you can find it. I, on the other hand, will not be visiting that pro-ana website you posted. Hits WAAAY too close to home. *shudder* Suicide, even if it's slow, isn't pretty.
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  #31  
Old 01 February 2007, 08:49 PM
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Tarquin Farquart Tarquin Farquart is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
I.E., there is more evidence suggesting a close link than there is evidence suggesting no link.

I'll have to see if I can find that cite. it was interesting.
I don't deny that there is a link in fact I'm sure it is a factor, just not the biggest. For example, and I know this is in no way a cite, but most young women I see on the underground or the bus are not reading high fashion magazines, but magazines like Heat, which tend to be full of "skinny celebs", "miracle diets" and the like.

These are far more damaging to self-esteem, IMO, then models.

BTW, I'd be very interested in seeing that cite.
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  #32  
Old 01 February 2007, 08:50 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by PallasAthena View Post
I bet it was interesting. Please do post it if you can find it. I, on the other hand, will not be visiting that pro-ana website you posted. Hits WAAAY too close to home. *shudder* Suicide, even if it's slow, isn't pretty.
I THINK it's in one of ten or so texts. But I do need to find it. I've been wanting to bring it up several times in the past few months, what with all the renewed model attention.

Ryda "Who hopes it was in one of those, but isn't sure, and could have been in any one of a hundred texts or in a journal article or in the reference of a journal article, who obviously needs a better fact cataloguing system installed in her head" Wong
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  #33  
Old 01 February 2007, 09:00 PM
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Simply Madeline Simply Madeline is offline
 
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New Guinea is mentioned in this book as being free from anorexia diagnoses until very recently.
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  #34  
Old 01 February 2007, 09:02 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart View Post
I don't deny that there is a link in fact I'm sure it is a factor, just not the biggest. For example, and I know this is in no way a cite, but most young women I see on the underground or the bus are not reading high fashion magazines, but magazines like Heat, which tend to be full of "skinny celebs", "miracle diets" and the like.

These are far more damaging to self-esteem, IMO, then models.

BTW, I'd be very interested in seeing that cite.
Ahh. that looks like our tabloid type thing. Sincerely (and I always try to see what someone is reading), I rarely see anyone reading those (they're a bit of an embarassment in the US), but I see alot of the Cosmo/Vogue readers. And it depends by age group as well. When I do see people reading/buying those tabloid things, it's older women (late thirties and above).
Very rarely have I seen a pre-teen to early 20s woman/girl pick up those types, they tend to go for fashion mages, and, since anorexia starts most often at younger ages.....



And I promise. By Monday, I will find that. It may lead to apology, as I remember it as being solid, but, under another review, I might find something not right. Either way, I'll get it.
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  #35  
Old 01 February 2007, 09:51 PM
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Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
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Going back to the OP, let me point out also that today's size 12 (American, naturally, since I is one) is yesterday's 16 (yesterday being in the 1950s). Women like low numbers (for whatever reason). Clothing makers accommodate this. Especially high-end clothing makers.

Personally, I was size 12 at age 16 and I'm still a size 12 thirty years later. Is the size 12 the same size? Possibly. I wore baggy clothes in my youth and I wear somewhat more closely fitting clothes now.

I was a size 14 for a while during the past 4 years, but I wore some size 14s as a teen, too.

Seaboe
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  #36  
Old 01 February 2007, 10:09 PM
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Judecat Judecat is offline
 
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Cheer

The other thing that makes the original topic so arbitrary is the tend to "downsize" the stated size on woman's cloths lately -- especially what they call plus size cloths.
I will admit to obesity -- and for years I joked I was a perfect size 24. When I went last summer to replace my badly worn streach jeans, I found I wore size 18. WTF -- I've only lost a grand total of 5 lbs in the last year or so. These are the same brand, from the same store, with the same spandex to denin ratio as the old ones.

Guess I should call my doctor and tell him I don't need the diet because I'm down to size 18 now.
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  #37  
Old 01 February 2007, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Well, having shopped both sides of the field, I will tell you that men's clothes were far less problimatic.

In your normal thrift store, I could take five pairs each of sizes 6, 8, 10 into a dressing room, and have two pairs fit, one six and one ten. And that's not even throwing the 7,9,11 Juniors sizing in the mix. Buying pants is hell on earth.

However, taking in five pairs of 30-34 men's jeans in would equal about four that would fit.

And let's not even get started on the button-up shirts. I cannot find a female button-up shirt that isn't either a tent, or gapes across the breasts. However, a men's med-large does just find for D cup tits.

I just need to learn how to sew.
I am just curious, but what exactly is the point of bringing up the size of your breasts? And how does wearing a man's button up shirt remove the tenting? Men's shirts have no waist shaping.
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  #38  
Old 01 February 2007, 11:32 PM
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Cervus Cervus is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Oh, yeah, I forgot to add that women's clothing sizes are so darned arbitrary, that it greatly decreases the possibility of this being true.
Exactly. I have pairs of jeans with size labels ranging from 4 to 9. They all have exactly the same measurements.

One of my bathing suits is labeled size 8. The other is labeled size 16! They measure and fit exactly the same. (And let me tell you, that was a mind-NFBSK when I had to keep returning to the dressing room with larger and larger suits, trying to figure out if the manufacturer had mislabeled them!)

I'm not sure how a woman can positively say "I wear a size...." since clothing sizes change with each maufacturer. I'm an extremely small-framed person and I generally wear between a 4-6, but a long time ago I learned not to bother looking at the size label and instead look at the actual amount of fabric and how it's tailored. That's the easiest way for me to tell if something's going to fit me.

It is normal for most people (male and female) to gain weight as they age due to changes in metabolism and lifestyle. But since dress sizes, genetics, and lifestyles all differ, gaining "one dress size per decade" is only a coincidence if it happens to you.
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  #39  
Old 01 February 2007, 11:35 PM
FloridaGirl
 
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The Devil Wears Prada has an interesting dialog:

Andy Sachs: So none of the girls here eat anything?
Nigel: Not since two became new four and zero became the new two.
Andy Sachs: Well, I'm a six...
Nigel: Which is the new fourteen.

I don't think women gain a set amount of weight exactly, so much as the fashion industry pumps out smaller and smaller people as "the new norm". This in turn makes the sizes smaller, and well, I think we all know where it goes from here. It's already been brought up.
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  #40  
Old 02 February 2007, 03:18 AM
medtchva
 
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Originally Posted by FloridaGirl View Post
The Devil Wears Prada has an interesting dialog:

Andy Sachs: So none of the girls here eat anything?
Nigel: Not since two became new four and zero became the new two.
Andy Sachs: Well, I'm a six...
Nigel: Which is the new fourteen.

I don't think women gain a set amount of weight exactly, so much as the fashion industry pumps out smaller and smaller people as "the new norm". This in turn makes the sizes smaller, and well, I think we all know where it goes from here. It's already been brought up.
I agree with you. I'm larger than I should be, but bone structure I could never be the size of a model today, nor would I want to be actually. I'll take curves over bones sticking out any day.
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