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  #201  
Old 09 May 2018, 05:26 AM
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Stop in place, then turn control over to a waiting human drone pilot who can remotely pilot the taxi to safety.
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  #202  
Old 09 May 2018, 01:28 PM
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Airplane

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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Stop in place, then turn control over to a waiting human drone pilot who can remotely pilot the taxi to safety.
I guess "Stop, Drop and roll" is out of the question if there's a fire?

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  #203  
Old 09 May 2018, 02:17 PM
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Probably marginally more useful than "duck and cover".
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  #204  
Old 10 May 2018, 08:00 PM
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I have been thinking about some of our original debates about AI vehicles, and the case that some have made that real world testing is simply a necessary step that we have to accept, and that along with that, we have to accept that there will be AI-caused crashes.

In the abstract, I agree that, if we are going to have fully AI vehicles, there will have to be real world, not closed environment, development. And there will be crashes. I've also consistently said that we have to be prepared for the fact that AI crashes will look very different from human driver crashes.*

But I think this crash and the Tesla crashes show strongly that this technology is not at the real world testing stage yet. There has been an utter failure of imagination on an incomprehensible scale to me that controlled environment testing would not have included these scenarios. How could you allow tuning the data that can be ignored to include something that is on the scale of something like 2 m²? If the car is ignoring that, it is also not "aware" of what's behind it. And it would have been tuned this way to avoid unnecessary slowing or stopping. If you can't avoid a pedestrian and bike without the car slowing and stopping so much that it is a problem, then that vehicle is not safe to be on public streets.

The Tesla crashes are similarly disturbing. (Regardless of the fact that a human is supposed to be paying attention.) You have a system that steers the car by following the lane markings on the road. And you have obviously not thoroughly tested the system in construction zone scenarios? There is no reason that that could not be done on closed courses until you are satisfied that commonly occurring scenarios of confusing or multiple lane markings can either be handled, or result in a safe failure mode like stopping, and do not result in a car that will drive straight into a concrete barrier because it is following a lane line that leads there.

All autonomous vehicles that are on the roads now ought to have been tested in those conditions until they can safely negotiate them one way or another. If they can't, they should be in closed course testing until they can.

*This crash is a prime example -- If the released information is accurate, the vehicle sensors detected the pedestrian and her bike, but the software had been tuned to ignore certain sensor data. (As it would have to, in order to not stop every time a leaf or plastic bag blew across the road). It was mis-tuned, so that it ignored the detection data from a person/bike/plastic bags combo. Because of that, the vehicle took no action, and drove "through" the pedestrian. A human would generally only act in that way if they never saw the person (like the "safety" driver, who was looking away from the road).

Last edited by erwins; 10 May 2018 at 08:07 PM.
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  #205  
Old 10 May 2018, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
All autonomous vehicles that are on the roads now ought to have been tested in those conditions until they can safely negotiate them one way or another. If they can't, they should be in closed course testing until they can.
Absolutely - you've put it more clearly than I've managed to do, or seen before.

It's the same error that pseudo-scientists make when testing their "theories". It seems they've only been testing for success, not failure. Their test environments have been set up to be as easy as possible for the cars, and they've gone straight from that to "real world" without going through the hard bits in between, which might have shown up problems.

Put like this it sounds so obvious that it's hard to believe it's true, but nothing I've read has contradicted it - and all the descriptions I've seen of the automated testing, and even the real-world testing (always in the easiest locations) have seemed to deliberately emphasise it, as though it's a good thing!
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  #206  
Old 10 May 2018, 11:15 PM
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Waymo has apparently been testing in a closed environment for some time now. Not sure what testing others have done. I do know that early DARPA contests for autonomous vehicles were done in closed environments.

http://www.govtech.com/fs/transporta...Test-Site.html
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  #207  
Old 10 May 2018, 11:19 PM
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Yes, there must be some people doing it properly. The reason that Uber and Tesla are the subjects of so much of the conversation is that they're the ones who are pushing it all out onto the roads much too quickly - deliberately and blatantly so in Uber's case, and by pretending that's not what they're doing at all in Tesla's. Uber is obviously worse, but I haven't a lot of respect for Tesla's attempts to market the benefits while simultaneously claiming that they're not trying to do any such thing, either.
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  #208  
Old 10 May 2018, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, there must be some people doing it properly.
We don't know because they aren't giving nearly enough details about what they're doing. The statistical evidence is poor, sparse, and inconclusive.
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  #209  
Old 11 May 2018, 12:24 AM
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I think they've all done some amount of closed course testing, or are building on stuff that did. But that misses the point. The DARPA competition HAD to be a closed course because it needed to be made easy enough to be an achievable goal.

Closed course testing has been used to make things easier. So having done closed course testing at some point is not a virtue, and doesn't address my point. My point is that the cars need to stay in closed course testing until they can handle, at the very least, the kind of challenges that crop up all the time in the "real world." They should be throwing those challenges and others at the vehicles until they work out the solutions.

I suppose it is possible that a company could have a robust enough safety driver program that "real world" testing is made safe enough, and then closed course challenges could be set up to work on the issues that are observed. I don't think Waymo has that mindset, since they've announced plans to deploy cars without safety drivers soon. (There would be remote monitoring and the ability to take control remotely, and they won't say exactly how much the cars will be remotely controlled.)

And even Waymo shows the "we'll solve that problem later" mentality. They are testing in extremely fair-weather, unchallenging locations. Can these cars operate safely in precipitation? What happens if a remotely monitored vehicle encounters an unexpected rain storm?
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  #210  
Old 11 May 2018, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I have been thinking about some of our original debates about AI vehicles, and the case that some have made that real world testing is simply a necessary step that we have to accept, and that along with that, we have to accept that there will be AI-caused crashes...
{rest snipped}

That sounds a very effective expression of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
...Their test environments have been set up to be as easy as possible for the cars, and they've gone straight from that to "real world" without going through the hard bits in between, which might have shown up problems...
"The amateur practices until they get it right. The professional practices until they can't get it wrong."

--Bob K.
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  #211  
Old 24 May 2018, 02:19 PM
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The NTSB released the preliminary report this morning:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...010-prelim.pdf

~Psihala
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  #212  
Old 24 May 2018, 02:21 PM
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Aaaand, on the same day:

Uber self-drives robo-cars out of Arizona after fatal crash

Quote:
Uber is pulling its self-driving cars out of Arizona. The ride-sharing company's reversal was triggered by the recent death of woman who was run over by one of its robotic vehicles while crossing a darkened street in a Phoenix suburb.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uber-en...aine-herzberg/

~Psihala
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  #213  
Old 22 June 2018, 06:38 PM
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Default Uber car's 'safety' driver streamed TV show before fatal crash: police

The safety driver behind the wheel of a self-driving Uber car in Tempe, Arizona, was streaming a television show on her phone until about the time of a fatal crash, according to a police report that deemed the March 18 incident “entirely avoidable.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1JI0LB
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  #214  
Old 13 December 2018, 10:44 PM
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Driver The deadly recklessness of the self-driving car industry

Autonomous vehicles were supposed to make driving safer, and they may yet—some of the more optimistic research indicates self-driving cars could save tens of thousands of lives a year in the U.S. alone. But so far, a recklessness has defined the culture of the largest companies pursuing the technology—Uber, Google, and arguably even Tesla—and has led directly to unnecessary crashes, injury, even death.

https://gizmodo.com/the-deadly-reckl...1831027948/amp

This article has some new information about reckless practices and ignoring warnings, and it makes many of the same points that some of us have expressed here.
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  #215  
Old 22 January 2019, 04:36 AM
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I debated starting a new thread, but this one has a lot of good discussion of the issue generally, so I'm putting this here.

CES-goer says his camera was killed by a self-driving car's LIDAR

Quote:
Jit Ray Chowdhury attended CES in his capacity as an autonomous vehicle engineer, and while there, snapped a picture of a self-driving car equipped with a LIDAR system from Aeye; he says the LIDAR's laser lanced through his camera's aperture and zapped its optical sensor, burning a permanent spot into it and ruining the camera (Aeye has offered to replace it).
As the article eventually gets around to pointing out, the enormous issue here is not that it might ruin phone cameras. It's that all of these cars are using cameras to sense and navigate their environments. So one car's lidar can ruin another car's sensor camera. Oops.

This reminds me that I can confirm that taking pics of the sun can damage a digital camera sensor. I have the eclipse photos, and permanent dark spot on my phone camera, to prove it.

Last edited by erwins; 22 January 2019 at 04:42 AM.
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  #216  
Old 22 January 2019, 01:27 PM
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Driverless car laser ruined camera

If it can burn out a camera, what about a human eye? According to the article, Aeye says it is not harmful to the human eye, but do they have proof or are they just making unsubstantiated claims?
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  #217  
Old 22 January 2019, 03:47 PM
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I have no idea about the specifics of the LIDAR used in the vehicles but I do know there are very specific limits on laser power before limits on exposure are required. These limits are to prevent the laser from being viewed.
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  #218  
Old 22 January 2019, 04:31 PM
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The article I posted mentions the requirements to not damage eyes, the wavelength of the laser in question, and that, unlike the critical parts of the human eye, the camera sensor is not surrounded by a liquid. From that I gathered that the laser meets the non-eye-damaging requirements by using a laser of a wavelength that is affected by eyeball anatomy in a way that protects eyes, but not camera sensors.

I certainly hope that the agency that enforces those regulations doesn't just take their word for it, but it makes sense to me that this scenario could happen as described.

ETA: I just noticed that I forgot to link the article earlier. Thanks GenYus for supplying a link to an article on the same event. Here's the one to the article I quoted, and to which I just referred. https://boingboing.net/2019/01/20/15...rmful.html/amp

Last edited by erwins; 22 January 2019 at 04:36 PM.
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  #219  
Old 22 January 2019, 04:37 PM
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I don't see a link in your previous post. Is this the article you mean:

https://boingboing.net/2019/01/20/15...d-harmful.html
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  #220  
Old 06 March 2019, 08:31 PM
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Uber Not Criminally Liable In Death Of Woman Hit By Self-Driving Car, Prosecutor Says

Quote:
An Arizona prosecutor has determined that Uber is not criminally liable in the death of a Tempe woman who was struck by a self-driving test car last year.
Which apparently doesn't entirely settle the matter. According to the same story:

Quote:
Uber, which declined to comment for this story, could still be sued in civil court and be forced to pay damages. The government could also potentially pursue criminal charges against managers or employees of Uber.
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