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  #21  
Old 04 August 2014, 11:56 AM
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This article claims that they didn't ask her to have an abortion until the 7th month, which is a very different scenario than aborting at 4 months too.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-0...spital/5647440
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  #22  
Old 04 August 2014, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropbear View Post
Of all the very very very wrong things attached to this situation the worst i find are represented in this comment left on the a news website:

Quote:
When the story first broke, I was horrified to learn that the Australian parents had 'abandoned' the second child.

However, now that more details have emerged and we have learned that the Australian parents wanted to have the disabled foetus aborted, my horror is no longer toward them but to the Thai woman who entered into a contract to carry the foetuses.

By entering into the contract and being paid, the Thai surrogate's body becomes that of the Australian mother for nine months. She should have had the foetus aborted when the Australian mother requested it as it was not her decision to make otherwise.

Whether one holds a belief for or against abortion, a contract is a contract and it is quite clear that the disabled baby now becomes the Thai surrogate's responsibility.
Italics mine

Yikes!

Dropbear

Link
This article quotes an Australian surrogacy advocate agency which points out that the refusal to abort may have broken the terms of the surrogacy agreement and the parents may have been within their rights under that agreement to abandon baby Gammy. The agency also stresses that in their opinion the decision was also disgusting and immoral regardless of what was stipulated in the surrogacy agreement.
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  #23  
Old 04 August 2014, 03:55 PM
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I don't think any court would find that the surrogate broke the contract by refusing to do something illegal. And as I mentioned before, since the intended father is the biological parent, I don't see how he wouldn't be considered the father regardless. He was the intended father whether you consider the surrogate to be the legal mother or not. I'm very curious who is listed as the father on the birth certificate. A lot depends on the laws there. Here in Oregon as long as the sperm donor isn't intended to be the parent, and certain conditions are met, they won't be the parent. But if they're intended to be the parent and there was no agreement to the contrary, then I think they would be.
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  #24  
Old 04 August 2014, 04:15 PM
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A Turtle Named Mack A Turtle Named Mack is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I don't think any court would find that the surrogate broke the contract by refusing to do something illegal.
Do you know that having an abortion would be illegal in Thailand. I know most countries have much stricter abortion laws than the US does, but I don't know Thailand's laws. The article says the abortion would be against Thai culture, but does not say it would be illegal. Reportedly the request to abort was not made until the babies were at 7 month gestation. I am also not sure from that if it is late-term abortion that is a problem or any abortion which Thai culture would find offensive (I am sure there is some range of opinion, although probably not as wide as in the US).
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  #25  
Old 04 August 2014, 04:26 PM
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Esprise Me posted a link in post #17 that says abortion is illegal in pretty much all circumstances except rape and incest, and danger to the mother. It specifies that "fetal infirmity" is not an exception. So even if the request had been made much earlier than month 7, according to that link it would have been illegal to obtain an abortion.
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  #26  
Old 04 August 2014, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
I know most countries have much stricter abortion laws than the US does [snip]
Cite, please.
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  #27  
Old 04 August 2014, 04:54 PM
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Frow the Pew Research group: http://www.pewforum.org/2008/09/30/a...und-the-world/

From PregnantPause.org - http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.htm

You can check a summary of various countries laws at the CRP's World Abortion Map

ETA I don't seem to be able to get this last link to launch from the link here. Here's the URL: http://worldabortionlaws.com/ or you can find it by search "abortion laws international"
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  #28  
Old 04 August 2014, 04:57 PM
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Oh, please. Abortion law is not simply "Is abortion legal check yes or no."
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  #29  
Old 04 August 2014, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Oh, please. Abortion law is not simply "Is abortion legal check yes or no."
And neither are the links reporting it as such.

BTW, according to CRP, Thailand allows abortion for fetal impairment. There may be age restrictions on that though (the map does not say).
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  #30  
Old 04 August 2014, 05:02 PM
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Age restrictions?
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  #31  
Old 04 August 2014, 05:03 PM
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The links don't show your claim.

(Also, the last link is not working because of the extra comma).
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  #32  
Old 04 August 2014, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Age restrictions?
fetal age - many countries insist that abortions be performed pretty much as soon as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
The links don't show your claim.

(Also, the last link is not working because of the extra comma).
We can let others make that determination for themselves - it seemed pretty clear to me.

As for the 'comma' comment, I checked my link and there were no commas in it or the whole sentence, so I do not see how there could be an extra one.
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  #33  
Old 04 August 2014, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post

We can let others make that determination for themselves - it seemed pretty clear to me.
It's not, though. For one thing, abortion law is not exclusively federal law. It varies dramatically from state to state, yet your links don't reflect that.

Quote:
As for the 'comma' comment, I checked my link and there were no commas in it or the whole sentence, so I do not see how there could be an extra one.
Sorry, not a comma--an extraneous quotation mark at the end.
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  #34  
Old 04 August 2014, 05:37 PM
Dr. Dave Dr. Dave is offline
 
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Mack, your URL for the map has a double quote (") after map/. Remove the " and it works fine.
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  #35  
Old 04 August 2014, 06:24 PM
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Thanks, Dave, but too late to change.
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  #36  
Old 05 August 2014, 02:26 AM
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There has been one or two more developments in the case.

Gammy's biological father has a conviction for indecent assault on a child

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/0...ex-convictions

The surrogate mother is now considering suing the couple

http://www.theage.com.au/world/gammy...04-1005fv.html

And it appears unlikely that the couple can be forced to have a DNA test.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/201...p58OuwwSBhf.99
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  #37  
Old 05 August 2014, 03:01 AM
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There's also a claim that "Ms Pattharamon is not the surrogate mother they met in Thailand". The whole thing is getting horribly complicated.
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  #38  
Old 05 August 2014, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
BTW, according to CRP, Thailand allows abortion for fetal impairment. There may be age restrictions on that though (the map does not say).
But according to your Pregnant Pause link, Thai law does not allow abortion for fetal defects. I found a few more sources that say the same thing:
http://www.un.org/esa/population/......c/thailand.doc
http://womenhealth.or.th/downloads/d...urce/eng-2.pdf
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...dhism-thailand

I did, however, come across several versions of a 2010 news story about 2,000 fetuses being found in a Bangkok temple that stated in identical language that abortion is allowed for rape, mother's health, or fetal abnormality. It may be the case that abortion is allowed if the fetus is so severely abnormal that it's unlikely to live, but not for abnormalities such as the one involved here. This link suggests that may be the case:
http://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/1770
Quote:
In France, Thailand, South Africa and Brazil laws authorize TOP at any moment of the pregnancy for serious or incurable or lethal fetal abnormalities.
Anyway, I don't know much about Thai law, but I suspect that, as in the US, a contract that requires one party to do something illegal is void, or at least the provision for the illegal act is stricken.
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  #39  
Old 05 August 2014, 04:35 AM
catty5nutz catty5nutz is offline
 
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At this point, I think that the abortion debate is not really relevant. What is important, is what is best for this little boy.
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  #40  
Old 05 August 2014, 06:57 AM
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The parents have released a statement about their side of the story.

Quote:
The babies were born two months premature due to medical complications. She said the couple was not told that Gammy had Down syndrome, but they were told he had a congenital heart condition.

“Gammy was very sick when he was born and the biological parents were told he would not survive and he had a day, at best, to live and to say goodbye,” she said.

Ms Pattharamon then said she wanted to keep Gammy and give him a proper Thai funeral.

The couple became embroiled in a legal battle to bring home the female twin. The 21-year-old surrogate mother finally agreed to hand the baby girl over, but the couple was terrified she could change her mind.

“All this happened when Thailand was in a military lockdown and very difficult to get around,” the friend said.

“The biological parents were heartbroken that they couldn’t take their boy with them and never wanted to give him up, but to stay would risk them losing their daughter also.

“They prayed for Gammy to survive but were told by doctors that he was too sick, not because of the Down syndrome but because of his heart and lung conditions and infection.”

Mr and Mrs Farnell spent two months in Thailand and extended their visas but due to military unrest said they had no option but to leave without Gammy.
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