snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > Non-UL Chat > Police Blotter

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 13 September 2018, 01:12 AM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,489
Default

Okay, I looked up the code for the doors of apartment complexes. Simplified, it says if the door opens into a closed hallway, it must be a self closing, self latching (not locking) door. The photos I've seen of the apartment in question do not seem to meet that requirement as the door was open to a much larger area than a hallway. That still doesn't mean the apartment door should have been self-closing and self latching. Note that this requirement was also required for the Grenfell Tower in London where many people were killed because fire doors were propped open and missing.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 13 September 2018, 01:25 AM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
Join Date: 27 April 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 9,509
Default

Less important, but I'm mildly curious: did you look up the code for the state and municipality this happened in? They vary.

More to the point: if for some reason Jean wanted the door to be ajar, it would have been easy enough to prop it that way, even if it was designed to be self closing. IME people quite frequently prop open doors that are supposed to be shut. I don't know whether there's other evidence as to whether that particular door was ajar; but I doubt the matter can be settled by checking the building codes.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 13 September 2018, 01:35 AM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,489
Default

No, I did not specifically look up the Dallas building code. However, I practiced engineering in Dallas for over 40 years so I am reasonably familiar with its codes. The difference between the code for hotels and apartments is that the hotel requirement for self closing, self locking doors is for security while that for multifamily dwellings is for fire and smoke control.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 13 September 2018, 02:04 AM
UEL's Avatar
UEL UEL is offline
 
Join Date: 01 August 2004
Location: Fredericton, Canada
Posts: 9,286
Baseball

Heard it on the radio while I was out.

Apparently, there are two witnesses from the building who are challenging the unlocked door. From the report, they both heard a woman knocking on his door asking him to "Let me in."

I don't know what to think.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 13 September 2018, 02:13 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,672
Ponder

I think I remember eye witness reports that Michael Brown had his hands up. Which is not to say that it’s not true, much less deliberately false, but that eye witness reports are often mistaken for a wide variety of reasons and the media doesn’t always do the best job of vetting them or withholding credulity when it tells a good story.

For instance, maybe they actually heard someone knocking on someone else's door five minutes earlier. Or maybe they’re 100% correct about what they heard and their interpretation. Either way, I suspect some forensic analysis of the crime scene may (or may not) shed some light on what actually happened. It would seem somewhat inconsistent with a knock and shoot scenario if the victim was found more than a few steps inside the apartment, for instance.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 13 September 2018, 03:47 AM
ganzfeld's Avatar
ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
Join Date: 05 September 2005
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Posts: 23,623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
You are sarcastically saying that it must be a factor
I never said any such thing.
Quote:
If facts come out that there was a previous relationship between the 2, then maybe race is a factor.
What the... What? How do you come to these kinds of statements? Do you see why someone might see this as you accepting lots of facts for which there is either little or conflicting evidence? You say "I think" or "I believe" but you are supporting those beliefs with a ton of presumptions about the facts. Here's another:
Quote:
However, the fact that the officer was a woman and the victim appears to be a large man may be part of the motivation for the officer to fire.
Where does that come from? Again, lots of things "may be". I'm not jumping to the conclusion that race played any role but to assume from the start that it didn't is what's wrong. To assume that she could or couldn't see him is wrong. (Either one is not good for the case you seem to be favouring because, again, if she couldn't even see him well enough to tell who he is then why the heck is she killing him?)

I was responding to what you said: (This was before you said I was being sarcastic, which I guess you mean cynical or something? I have not been sarcastic. The following post of yours is sarcastic.)
Quote:
But erwin, she is a white police officer and he was a black man. Therefore, she shot him on purpose. The rest is just obfuscation.
What did you mean by this? Do explain.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 13 September 2018, 05:07 AM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,489
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Uh huh. I think the Moon is made of cheese, probably Camembert, but what matters is the evidence and there's more evidence in this case than just what the accused says, including some alleged multiple witness testimony that seems to contradict some of that story. None of us were there but there were others who witnessed and there is other evidence there.

Also, what you're saying suggests that he was without even seeing who it was. IANAL but that sounds like a worse charge to me. Even in her own room, it could have been a building superintendent. It could have been another law enforcement officer there on call. There was no reason to assume it was an intruder. (And, seriously, I think the chances race played a role in her allegedly assessing him as an intruder are, well rather high. Nothing close to zero. I can't imagine how you came to that conclusion even based on her alleged testimony. "A sillouette"?? Please. It doesn't even sound like a non-racial description, frankly.)
Is this true or sarcasm? You think the moon is made of cheese?
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 13 September 2018, 05:42 AM
ganzfeld's Avatar
ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
Join Date: 05 September 2005
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Posts: 23,623
Default

I will explain exactly what is meant by that. (Will you do the same?) It means that just believing something doesn't hold any weight. You didn't cite any evidence at all (except extremely tenuously relevant facts such as "she's a woman and he's a big man") when claiming that race played no role - just your belief. Then you said she probably couldn't see him. Again, no evidence cited at all. So probably Camembert. (But it could be Brie. Might be, that is.)
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 13 September 2018, 02:59 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,489
Default

So you believe the protesters at the council meeting. He was killed because he was black. I don't. What evidence have you read that I haven't?

This morning on the news, his sister says that she doesn't believe the officer's account about the lights being out in the apartment because her brother did not like the dark.

Also, residents say the front doors were self closing. I'm sure the police investigation will check that.

So to summarize, we have the officer's account that she went to the wrong apartment by accident and shot someone of unknown race who she thought was an intruder in her apartment versus those who believe she went there deliberately to shoot Jean versus those who believe she went to the apartment accidentally but deliberately shot when she saw it was a black man there. Any other theories?
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 13 September 2018, 03:04 PM
Alarm's Avatar
Alarm Alarm is offline
 
Join Date: 26 May 2011
Location: Nepean, ON
Posts: 5,717
Soapbox

I read somewhere, probably in an article I saw on twitter, which I am unable to backtrack, that the officer was a member of an "elite" unit.

If she's an "elite", that supposedly means she's tougher and better trained than the lowly non-elite "peon" officers. But she was "tired after a long shift", "didn't realize she parked on the wrong floor", "didn't realize she wasn't in her apartment" and shot a man after "giving him commands he didn't obey".

I'm reserving judgement on whether or not she did it because of racism, but IMHO, she definitely did it because of improper training.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 13 September 2018, 03:30 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,489
Default

Alarm, I read that in the Dallas Morning News web site. https://www.dallasnews.com/
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 13 September 2018, 06:51 PM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,672
Police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
I'm reserving judgement on whether or not she did it because of racism, but IMHO, she definitely did it because of improper training.
What about not trained (and understandably so) to handle the given situation? What about properly trained, but failed to act according to training?
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 13 September 2018, 07:22 PM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 26,256
Default

The police should have trained her in what to do when she's too (tired/exhausted/scared/angry) to follow her training.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 13 September 2018, 07:50 PM
erwins's Avatar
erwins erwins is offline
 
Join Date: 04 April 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
So to summarize, we have the officer's account that she went to the wrong apartment by accident and shot someone of unknown race who she thought was an intruder in her apartment versus those who believe she went there deliberately to shoot Jean versus those who believe she went to the apartment accidentally but deliberately shot when she saw it was a black man there. Any other theories?
Those are not accurate descriptions of the options.

I don't believe we have a direct account, or a definitive one, of what the shooter's story is. Even once we do (if we ever do) I think it will be hard to quantify the role race played, but it will likely not be zero.

She is, of course, not going to say, "I saw a black man, and because of that, I shot him." But we also know -- from actual testing -- that people are more likely to perceive a dark skinned person as a threat, and take longer to discern that an object they are holding is not a weapon. (I.e., make a "don't shoot" decision). When someone shoots an unarmed black person, this implicit bias, at least, seems likely to have played some role.

We have a description attributed to her that she saw "a large silhouette." I would be very curious about the lighting in her claimed scenario, and what the investigation shows about it. If, as one account has it, the lights in the apartment were off, but the hallway was lit, it's hard to see how there would be a silhouette. (But there could be a large dark person). If apartment lights were on, it's possible he was silhouetted, but that could call other things from her account into question.

On another note. Seeing how her story has changed a bit already, I would not be surprised if she makes a further tweak to suggest that he moved toward her while she was issuing orders.

Also, very unfortunately, the family's lawyer is prone to malapropisms. Not the best person to be your spokesperson.

Last edited by erwins; 13 September 2018 at 07:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 13 September 2018, 08:22 PM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
Join Date: 27 April 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 9,509
Default

This is in town, right? So if curtains were open, there was probably at least some light coming in the windows; though I don't know how brightly that area is lit at night. But IME many apartments/motel rooms/etc. in towns or cities have more than enough light from the street lighting coming in the windows, if curtains are open, for many people to find their way around the room without turning on lights. (This would have been pretty close to new moon, so not much light from that source.)

Whether what she meant by "silhouette" was that he was backlit, or only that she's saying the light was good enough to see a general shape but not good enough to see features, is unclear. As is a whole lot of other stuff about this incident. Were the two people who said they heard her knocking on the door in the same apartment, for instance? Did they discuss what they heard with each other before they reported it to investigators? How well did their stories match? How well is it possible to determine direction of sound, in that particular building, from the place(s) they heard it from? Does anyone else report that they were knocking on a door, or that they heard someone knocking on a different door, in that building around the same time?

Presumably the investigation, if it's decently run, will look into all of that, as well as into the lighting.

I hope somebody also looks into the practice of having armed police officers working 15 hour shifts. Whether or not this particular incident was partly due to exhaustion, I have trouble imagining that officers are thinking really clearly even while they're still on duty, towards the end of such shifts.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 13 September 2018, 10:00 PM
ganzfeld's Avatar
ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
Join Date: 05 September 2005
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Posts: 23,623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
So you believe the protesters at the council meeting. He was killed because he was black.
Well, if that's your level of reading comprehension in this issue then I kind of get why you have this view. I have said nothing of the sort. (I don't think most of the protesters have either.)
Quote:
So to summarize, we have the officer's account that she went to the wrong apartment by accident and shot someone of unknown race who she thought was an intruder in her apartment versus those who believe she went there deliberately to shoot Jean versus those who believe she went to the apartment accidentally but deliberately shot when she saw it was a black man there. Any other theories?
Wait, now you're mocking his family's statements by stating them and then completely ignoring them in a "summary" which ignores at least 90% of the evidence just that's been reported in the news already even though that the lights may have been on is also supported by actual witnesses who were there?? You seem to have absolutely no capability of considering this without bias, including completely miscontruing what the portesters and his family have said, not to mention completely ignoring what several witnesses have allegedly said.

You think "the fact that he is a large man and she is a small woman" is so much more important evidence than actual statements of people who know these people or who were there that they don't even count at all compared to what the accused killer claimed. Yet you want us to believe that she's the one who is suffering from an unfair bias.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 13 September 2018, 10:53 PM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,672
Military

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I hope somebody also looks into the practice of having armed police officers working 15 hour shifts. Whether or not this particular incident was partly due to exhaustion, I have trouble imagining that officers are thinking really clearly even while they're still on duty, towards the end of such shifts.
This, rather than “training”, is where I would think the department’s role in this (and by extension, its area for improvement going forward) lies.

Maybe I’m sensitive because, having been in charge of a fairly complex training program, I got fed up with how often “training” was cited as a contributing factor for obvious individual or (other) programmatic failures. How many times do you need to hold training on why it’s wrong to falsify logs, for instance? The answer can’t simply be “more and better” every time. At some point people and, if it’s due to things like a manager forcing their people into untenable situations, their director supervisors need to be held accountable.

Last edited by ASL; 13 September 2018 at 11:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 13 September 2018, 11:22 PM
UEL's Avatar
UEL UEL is offline
 
Join Date: 01 August 2004
Location: Fredericton, Canada
Posts: 9,286
Baseball

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
I read somewhere, probably in an article I saw on twitter, which I am unable to backtrack, that the officer was a member of an "elite" unit.

If she's an "elite", that supposedly means she's tougher and better trained than the lowly non-elite "peon" officers. But she was "tired after a long shift", "didn't realize she parked on the wrong floor", "didn't realize she wasn't in her apartment" and shot a man after "giving him commands he didn't obey".

I'm reserving judgement on whether or not she did it because of racism, but IMHO, she definitely did it because of improper training.
Problem is there is no definition for the word elite that can be used without other descriptions.

I know people who are military, and don't leave a computer to do their job, being called elite. They are among the best in the world at what they do (not to detail what they do, but there are jobs like cyber, intelligence analysis, space operations, security, networking, R&D etc that could all have elite units).

So, this officer may be the driver for an armoured vehicle in an elite SWAT Team. Or, may be a police analysis expert in a counter-terror task force, or fugitive apprehension force.

Until we know what type of elite unit, and what her job is, you are wise in your reserving judgement.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 14 September 2018, 01:24 PM
Alarm's Avatar
Alarm Alarm is offline
 
Join Date: 26 May 2011
Location: Nepean, ON
Posts: 5,717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
Problem is there is no definition for the word elite that can be used without other descriptions.

I know people who are military, and don't leave a computer to do their job, being called elite. They are among the best in the world at what they do (not to detail what they do, but there are jobs like cyber, intelligence analysis, space operations, security, networking, R&D etc that could all have elite units).

So, this officer may be the driver for an armoured vehicle in an elite SWAT Team. Or, may be a police analysis expert in a counter-terror task force, or fugitive apprehension force.

Until we know what type of elite unit, and what her job is, you are wise in your reserving judgement.
She participates in active operations, as we know from the fact that she was involved in a previous incident where she had her taser taken from her so she shot the perpetrator. This to me indicates she's not a "REMF" but an active member... now, did she get remedial training, or was she reprimanded and set to office duties after the incident with the taser, we don't know... but she's still a member of that unit that used to be active and probably is still active.

ETA: I understand that we should reserve judgement, but there is just too much about this story, (including some of the new details saying the DPD got a warrant to search the victim's apartment and they found drugs) that sound too much like the Police department trying to justify her behaviour.

Last edited by Alarm; 14 September 2018 at 01:27 PM. Reason: added stuff
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 14 September 2018, 02:04 PM
UEL's Avatar
UEL UEL is offline
 
Join Date: 01 August 2004
Location: Fredericton, Canada
Posts: 9,286
Baseball

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
She participates in active operations,
This is issue number one. There are hundreds of police that take part in active operations. Including the police that would establish a cordon. In fact, I'm listening to some police case podcasts where they bring trainees on active operations to bolster their numbers. This expression means little to me.

I worked with our special forces once, on an active operation. It does not make me special forces. I was considered elite, though.

Quote:
This to me indicates she's not a "REMF" but an active member
REMF means that the member is well away from operations. Perhaps in police parlance, back at the call centre. Perhaps she was driving a vehicle for the SWAT team, or holding a cordon, or escorting civilians. Neither of those are REMF jobs, are part of the elite team duties, without her being the main operator.

Quote:
... now, did she get remedial training, or was she reprimanded and set to office duties after the incident with the taser, we don't know... but she's still a member of that unit that used to be active and probably is still active.
And you may very well be correct. She may be the one with the battering ram that enters rooms full of armed hostage takers. We don't know because (at least I haven't found) the information is not available.

I just find the wording "elite" to describe a unit to be ineffective in describing a person in that unit. Is the mechanic that fixes the vehicles for the elite Navy SEALS also considered elite?

Quote:
ETA: I understand that we should reserve judgement, but there is just too much about this story, (including some of the new details saying the DPD got a warrant to search the victim's apartment and they found drugs) that sound too much like the Police department trying to justify her behaviour.
I agree here. I have found 3 versions of the "official" story. I understand well that the narrative will change as time goes by. However, these three versions each increasingly makes Jean the bad guy.

I've enjoyed this. Good conversation.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Judge fatally shoots himself after a lengthy standoff with police. Hostages are safe E. Q. Taft Police Blotter 1 24 August 2018 10:33 PM
White St. Louis police officer shoots off-duty black officer Psihala Police Blotter 31 29 June 2017 04:17 AM
Man fatally shot trying to break in apartment A Turtle Named Mack Police Blotter 1 04 January 2015 05:37 AM
Resident Shoots Masturbating Burglar Breaking Into Pennsylvania Apartment A Turtle Named Mack Police Blotter 15 31 December 2014 08:55 PM
Father charged after 2-year-old fatally shoots herself snopes Police Blotter 0 23 October 2013 08:27 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.