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  #81  
Old 22 February 2018, 09:18 PM
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A great line from that article: "This isn’t a movie where bullets always miss the hero. "
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  #82  
Old 22 February 2018, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Who wants to be responsible for the time there's a school shooting and the way the shooter got the gun into the school was that they were specifically authorized and told to bring guns in there?
Even if teachers never go berserk, I think a large number of them being armed would result in all kinds of casualties. There would be accidents. There would be cases of teachers feeling 'threatened' and shooting someone who was unarmed (given how many cases we've seen of actual police officers doing that, it's hard to believe teachers would be immune). There would be cases where a student somehow got a hold of the gun and shot someone, either intentionally or accidentally. There would be cases where teachers were reacting to a legitimate threat, but shot a bystander; or are themselves shot by law enforcement reacting to the scene. Most of the casualties would happen one at a time, so they wouldn't get the publicity of the mass shootings; but I bet they would add up to a far higher total than the number that would be prevented.

(The one thing we can never know for sure is if any shooters would actually be deterred by the knowledge that the teachers were armed. Given that most of these shooters don't seem to expect to live through the episode, I tend to doubt it. Others might simply adapt to it -- make teachers a higher priority target, shooting from cover, firing from ranges over which handguns are unlikely to be effective, etc.)

And of course, when it happens, who's going to be on the hook for the damages? Unless there's specific legislative relief, it's going to be the school districts, i.e., the taxpayers.
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  #83  
Old 22 February 2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
In their thinking* teachers are in the same category as police officers and military personnel, a monobloc culture of selfless people who are more than human and never experience human weaknesses.
And therefore don't need to be paid much; or have their treatment for trauma funded.

Except, of course, that it's useful to rail at the "other side" for not supporting them, at least when not busy voting down measures that might do so.

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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
Even if teachers never go berserk, I think a large number of them being armed would result in all kinds of casualties.
Agreeing with that, and with all of your examples.

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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
(The one thing we can never know for sure is if any shooters would actually be deterred by the knowledge that the teachers were armed. Given that most of these shooters don't seem to expect to live through the episode, I tend to doubt it.
Yeah. One of the things that often doesn't seem to get through is that punitive deterrent measures aren't likely to have much effect on people who expect to die in the act.

I remember having an argument about that many years ago with my mother, after Columbine: she said we needed harsher penalties for misbehavior, and I said 'Mother, they killed themselves. What punishment do you think would have stopped them?'

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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
And of course, when it happens, who's going to be on the hook for the damages?
And before it happens, who's going to be on the hook for all those weapons, the ammunition for them, and the training and continuing training for the people who are to use them?

Oh, silly me, I'm forgetting: the teachers will pay for it all out of the goodness of their hearts. See comments earlier in this post.
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  #84  
Old 22 February 2018, 11:41 PM
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Well actually, Trump said you would pay the teachers a little bit more. So there it that.

Actually the isn't enough for that suggestion.

Cause paying the teachers with the guns "a little bit more" would solve all the problems that have been brought up with arming some teachers. sarcasm

Last edited by Dasla; 23 February 2018 at 12:02 AM. Reason: arming, arming some teachers.
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  #85  
Old 22 February 2018, 11:54 PM
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And you know if they did end up arming teachers and another school shooting happened (because a teacher with a handgun may or may not be able to stop a shooter with an AR-15 before being gunned down him or herself), Republicans and the NRA would just shift the blame to the teachers.

It still wouldn't be an issue of the availability and ubiquity of semi-automatic weapons in our country, it would be that teachers didn't do their jobs and kill someone who came to their school with a bloodbath in mind.
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  #86  
Old 23 February 2018, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ellestar View Post
Republicans and the NRA would just shift the blame to the teachers.
And the media. Don't forget the media!

http://www.startribune.com/nra-accus...ing/474887753/

The longtime face of the NRA was preceded on stage by the group's spokeswoman, Dana Loesch, a prominent conservative radio host. She accused media outlets of focusing heavily on school shootings involving white and affluent neighborhoods instead of those occurring in inner cities.

"Many in legacy media love mass shootings, you guys love it," Loesch said. "Now I'm not saying that you love the tragedy but I am saying that you love the ratings. Crying white mothers are ratings gold."
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  #87  
Old 23 February 2018, 12:56 AM
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Apparently there was actually an armed guard at this school, but he decided not to go in to the building where the shooting was going on:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-did-not-go-in

Quote:
The armed deputy who was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school when a gunman massacred 17 people stood outside the building as it occurred and did not go in to engage the shooter, the Broward County sheriff, Scott Israel, said on Thursday.
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  #88  
Old 23 February 2018, 01:39 AM
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I was going to start off with "oh, good grief" but that particular phrasing's a bit too apposite.

Florida Lawmakers Advance Bill Requiring Schools To Display 'In God We Trust'

Quote:
On Wednesday, in a speech from the House floor, Daniels indirectly referred to the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School last week that left 17 students and educators dead.

"It is not a secret that we have some gun issues that need to be addressed, but the real thing that needs to be addressed are issues of the heart," she said.

Daniels said she had a vision earlier in the week, "I believe it was God, and I heard a voice say, 'Do not politicize what has happened in Florida and do not make this a thing of division.' "
How on earth does she think that this isn't further making it a thing of division?

Is she under the delusion that everybody in the country will think this is a great idea?

-- actually, it's kind of interesting that lots of people, in not only this but also other issues, seem to mean 'Do not politicize' to be the same as 'Do not indicate any disagreement with my/our particular politics'.
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  #89  
Old 23 February 2018, 02:11 AM
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Some people want to blame school shootings on the fictitious removal of religion from schools.

They're strangely silent on what the cause of shootings in churches is.
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  #90  
Old 23 February 2018, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
In their thinking* teachers are in the same category as police officers and military personnel, a monobloc culture of selfless people who are more than human and never experience human weaknesses.

ETA: And are useful icons to whip up mock outrage over invented slights.

* Used loosely.
I don’t know. Most of the time, the GOP express nothing but contempt for teachers and are bound and determined to slash school funding and get rid of teachers. Then they sit around, all baffled by the drop in test scores.

Though yeah, given that a good many teachers already have to buy their own supplies, because no one can be arsed to provide funding to schools, do you really think they’re going to go through with the “Give Teachers Guns” scheme? Children may be the future and schools may be important, but the Right will be damned if they’ll provide support for either.

If they do actually go through with this asinine idea, in the unlikely event that the government is willing to turn over the cash, let’s hope that teachers everywhere will take their guns to the nearest pawn shop, trade them in for cash, and use said cash to buy needed supplies for their class or the school in general. If anyone asks, they should just shrug their shoulders and be like, “Sorry, but I thought textbooks were more important.”

Given that the politicians/pundits proposing this idea, are also the ones most against giving them any kind of aid and try their damndest to slash whatever amount school districts receive, period, teachers everywhere have the right, no, the duty to give those jerks the middle finger.

I hope all these kids keep up their protests. Everyone continue the Walk-Out! Be like, “We’re not coming back until you take basic steps to ensure our safety.”

Polls have shown that most Americans, regardless of demographic or gun ownership, support some kind of gun control. Yet those in power seem bound and determined to do the opposite. The NRA only represents a small percentage of gun owners and an even smaller number of Americans, but they seem to run this country, enough that I’m wondering if there’s a way to get them classified as a hate group or a terrorist one. Because a group of glib sociopaths should not have the power they do!
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  #91  
Old 23 February 2018, 12:09 PM
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I wonder if anything would change if a (NRA supporting) congressperson's child or grandchild died. I don't wish it because I'd just rather no more kids die from this absurd phenomenon, but I wonder statistically if/when it will happen, would it make even a touch of difference, or would it just cement the beliefs they already have.
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  #92  
Old 23 February 2018, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Apparently there was actually an armed guard at this school, but he decided not to go in to the building where the shooting was going on:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-did-not-go-in
That is why you need a LOT of good guys with guns, who are all well trained, armed, and paid to be at the school. Maybe conservatives would support increasing school funding if the money went to having multiple trained guards there...or will it be an idea of "just cut all the waste and fraud and you will have plenty of money for several trained guards!"
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  #93  
Old 23 February 2018, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dasla View Post
Well actually, Trump said you would pay the teachers a little bit more.
In fact he actually said it would be cheaper - and make for a more pleasant, less militarized, look for schools - than hiring professional guards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
I don’t know. Most of the time, the GOP express nothing but contempt for teachers and are bound and determined to slash school funding and get rid of teachers.
But the teachers with guns will be the good teachers, and the ones who would rather educate without being armed would be the usual targets (no pun intended).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
If they do actually go through with this asinine idea, in the unlikely event that the government is willing to turn over the cash, let’s hope that teachers everywhere will take their guns to the nearest pawn shop, trade them in for cash, and use said cash to buy needed supplies for their class or the school in general. If anyone asks, they should just shrug their shoulders and be like, “Sorry, but I thought textbooks were more important.”
And I'm sure that will be prohibited by law (I can see the "School property - do not sell" engraved on the gun) and only allow idiots to label these teachers as not caring about the important things.
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  #94  
Old 23 February 2018, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
I don’t know. Most of the time, the GOP express nothing but contempt for teachers and are bound and determined to slash school funding and get rid of teachers. Then they sit around, all baffled by the drop in test scores.
Supporting something with empty words and gestures and supporting it with funding and helpful legislation are two very different things. Witness how much the GOP fawns all over veterans and the military, but does jack poop to improve the VA or provide funding for PTSD care.

Or how Trump gave Puerto Rico a golf trophy but FEMA only had 1/3 the personnel for hurricane relief.
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  #95  
Old 23 February 2018, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
-- actually, it's kind of interesting that lots of people, in not only this but also other issues, seem to mean 'Do not politicize' to be the same as 'Do not indicate any disagreement with my/our particular politics'.
Another thought about this attitude: it's rather like 'I don't have an accent! Everybody else has an accent!'; but with more serious consequences. Whatever the person thinks themselves is seen as just normal, not political at all. Any varying opinion, at least if expressed in public, is considered 'politicizing'.
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  #96  
Old 23 February 2018, 03:45 PM
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I don't give them that much credit. I think they keep crying about not politicizing things to make it seem like the other side is politicizing a tragedy. Like Mouse (I think it was her) pointed out, nearly everything the GOP bitches about is exactly what they are most guilty of, squaredly so for Trump.
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  #97  
Old 23 February 2018, 04:41 PM
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Maybe the best response to the GOP is to keep reminding them that John Hinckley Jr. managed to wound 4 people, despite the number of armed police and secret service agents in the vicinity. And this was with a hand gun and involved the President of the United States.

At the best, good guys with a gun may reduce the number of victims. Gun control can prevent them from being in harm's way from the start.
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  #98  
Old 23 February 2018, 04:45 PM
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I am hearing a lot of the people I know (and see on Facebook) say that basically, banning guns or getting rid of semi- or fully automatic weapons won't stop ALL shootings, so why even try? You know, like the police and feds don't even bother with trying to do something about drugs, since their efforts are not immediately 100% successful.
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  #99  
Old 23 February 2018, 04:45 PM
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As one of the young men from this high school pointed out, the arming teachers advocates are still saying that some fatalities are acceptable to them. A teacher isn't going to shoot because a student looks threatening (one would hope), even the best case scenario still means some students will be shot. But it's all good.
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  #100  
Old 23 February 2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
As one of the young men from this high school pointed out, the arming teachers advocates are still saying that some fatalities are acceptable to them. A teacher isn't going to shoot because a student looks threatening (one would hope), even the best case scenario still means some students will be shot. But it's all good.
Yeah. This is something the "arm the teachers" crowd really can't grasp: what we really should be trying to do is avoid having people get shot, including mentally disturbed teens who want to shoot up their schools.
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