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  #41  
Old 16 February 2018, 06:18 PM
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And I've just seen "If it's okay for approximately 2000--3000 mothers to kill their children daily, why is it not okay for some guy to take a gun into a school and murder a handful of people?"(from FB, posted on Free Jinger).

Y'know, born kids...
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  #42  
Old 16 February 2018, 06:45 PM
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Ah, the good old days when the GOP used veiled (most of the time) misogyny instead of blatant racism and xenophobia to distract their voters.
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  #43  
Old 17 February 2018, 12:30 AM
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I just heard an interview on NPR with a young man who sheltered in place with his younger brother talking about how he is forming a group on social media to actively work against Gov. Scott and others who he blames for allowing the circumstances of the latest shooting to existing. This young man is an eloquent speaker and writer. Apparently CNN has published his editorial. But he also has a tremendous sense of irony, when asked how he could influnce politics, his response was "Well, since I'm not a Russian computer, I can't vote."
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  #44  
Old 17 February 2018, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
My reaction to that WP article was one is too damn many so why have a fit about an "over inflated" number? It really doesn't matter a lick to me if it's a school shooting, and suicide, a mass shooting, whatever. It's all too much and it's never going to stop because there's money to be made. It's sickening.
Agreed. This kind of nitpicking feels akin to debating whether Lizzie Borden killed her father with forty whacks or forty-one. Regardless of the exact number, her dad and his wife were still brutally hacked up with an axe.

Oh and in the unlikely event that there are some anti-gun nuts reading this who are about to chime in, there’s a reason we don’t hear about somebody going into a public place and hacking up dozens of people with an axe. Technically the off-heard toxic meme, “Guns don’t kill people; people kill people,” is right, just as it would be correct to say, “Planes don’t get people across the Pacific Ocean; people do,” is correct.

It doesn’t change the fact that just as planes make it a whole lot easier for people to fly people across the Pacific Ocean, guns make it a whole lot easier for people to kill people.

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Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
I just heard an interview on NPR with a young man who sheltered in place with his younger brother talking about how he is forming a group on social media to actively work against Gov. Scott and others who he blames for allowing the circumstances of the latest shooting to existing. This young man is an eloquent speaker and writer. Apparently CNN has published his editorial. But he also has a tremendous sense of irony, when asked how he could influnce politics, his response was "Well, since I'm not a Russian computer, I can't vote."
Well, maybe we can convince Donald that Obama was staunchly opposed to gun control legislation and wouldn’t pass any of it. Since Donald is bound and determined to overturn and undo everything Obama has done, maybe it will work.

Then again, I remain disappointed that Obama never utilized the GOP’s “Oppose everything Obama supports and support whatever Obama opposes,” to his advantage. C’mon, when your opponent has that obvious a weakness, you’re a damn fool to not exploit it. You basically spent eight years playing as Luke Skywalker, firing at everything but the Death Star exhaust port.
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  #45  
Old 17 February 2018, 02:32 AM
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Common sense says ban assault rifles although most gun deaths are caused by hand guns. Common sense is really not very common.

What needs to happen before any legislation is a comprehensive study of gun deaths. This needs to be done despite what the NRA thinks.

Next, if assault rifles are to be banned, a definition of an assault rifle needs to be formulated. This has not been done in the past. There are only 2 basic things that make up an assault rifle. These are rate of fire and magazine capacity. The .223 is not a high powered round. The .22LR is powerful enough to kill. As a kid in a fire protection class said "That means my Ruger 10/22 with a 30 round magazine is an assault rifle." I told him he was correct.
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  #46  
Old 17 February 2018, 11:03 PM
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I was expecting this article to be more glib or sarcastic, but it actually has a pretty good counter to the "good guy with a gun" meme.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerl...uys-with-guns/
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  #47  
Old 17 February 2018, 11:15 PM
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In the mass shooting at Umpqua Community College back in October of 2015 here in Roseburg, three people were carrying concealed firearms on the campus at the time of the shooting.

They all stayed where they were and didn't confront him. The "good guys with guns" were absolutely irrelevant.
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  #48  
Old 18 February 2018, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mbravo View Post
I was expecting this article to be more glib or sarcastic, but it actually has a pretty good counter to the "good guy with a gun" meme.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerl...uys-with-guns/
The funny thing from a non-US perspective is how totally obvious all that stuff is, too...

I mean, even I have a fantasy wherein something dangerous is happening and I take out the bad guys single-handed while making humorous quips. Not being in the USA, I tend to imagine myself whacking them with the nearest bar-stool at the moment they reveal their evil intentions, and before they've managed to shoot me (in my own fantasies, it's the bad guys who have the guns, but again, that's my non-US perspective).

But sometimes I like to imagine myself with a handgun and getting between-the-eyes headshots in to each of the bad guys before they've killed anybody. I think it's something I could do pretty well, even though I've never fired a handgun before. (I've fired a shotgun, and managed to hit a few clay pigeons; I know that's very different but I've also fired an air pistol at a fairground and was a much better shot at that, which in my fond imagination is just the same as shooting all the baddies between the eyes the moment one of them looks like he's going to draw his pistol). Luckily, I have enough of a hold on reality to realise that this might not really be quite how things would go down in real life.

To be fair, one difference between my own fantasies and those of the "good guys with guns" in the USA is that in the USA, these people probably do in fact own handguns and have fired them a lot at ranges. Many of them probably carry their guns around with them as well. So if this situation ever arose, they'd probably be better shots than I would be.

Other than that, though, I'm not sure what the difference is. It's clearly just a mad fantasy based on watching cowboy films and so on. I can see that, because that's the extent to which it's a part of my culture. Apparently in America, people think it's real.
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  #49  
Old 18 February 2018, 03:31 AM
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Medium has an article where the writer talked to an actual ballistics expert about “the Good Guy with a Gun” meme. The expert claims that in a high-stress, shooting situation, a cop’s shooting accuracy goes down to about 18%. If this is what happens to people given an extensive amount of training in firearms and are taught over and over how to function in high-stress situations, imagine what happens when it comes to Joe Blow Average, whose training consists of going to the range a couple times a week.
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  #50  
Old 18 February 2018, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Common sense says ban assault rifles although most gun deaths are caused by hand guns. Common sense is really not very common.

What needs to happen before any legislation is a comprehensive study of gun deaths. This needs to be done despite what the NRA thinks.
I think it needs to go a lot deeper than that. I think the shooting deaths are only a symptom of something that's been happening in the US for many decades. Here's something I wrote on FB in a similar discussion:

Quote:
One of the major issues underpinning the problem is the "My life is shit therefore other people must be punished" mindset that seems to be prevalent in the US. The current political climate is absolutely rife with it: "Crime is rampant therefore we have to build a wall on the US/Mexico border and they must pay for it", "I pay too many taxes therefore people on welfare have to be drug tested" etc etc etc. "I'm super angry so I'm going to shoot up a school" is just another extension of that mindset.


Edit: here in Australia where guns are a lot harder to get hold of we've had several mass attacks where the perpetrator simply drove a car into a crowd of people. One such instance had 6 deaths. I'm very much in favour of gun control laws but they're still only a treatment of a symptom and not the underlying issues.
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  #51  
Old 18 February 2018, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Medium has an article where the writer talked to an actual ballistics expert about “the Good Guy with a Gun” meme. The expert claims that in a high-stress, shooting situation, a cop’s shooting accuracy goes down to about 18%. If this is what happens to people given an extensive amount of training in firearms and are taught over and over how to function in high-stress situations, imagine what happens when it comes to Joe Blow Average, whose training consists of going to the range a couple times a week.
A couple of times a year maybe. If that.
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  #52  
Old 18 February 2018, 09:18 PM
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This article has some video that shows how regular people handle situations with guns compared to how police handle them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...4HSoHzssmGvUXL
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  #53  
Old 19 February 2018, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
here in Australia where guns are a lot harder to get hold of we've had several mass attacks where the perpetrator simply drove a car into a crowd of people. One such instance had 6 deaths. I'm very much in favour of gun control laws but they're still only a treatment of a symptom and not the underlying issues.
You have a point, Gutter Monkey. A real driving factor among so many mass shooters seems to be rarely about an ideology and more born out of entitlement: Jagoff feels like he (and it's usually a He) hasn't been given the perks (wealth, power, women, or whatever) he feels is due to him and he's going to take it out on everyone. Entitled Jagoffs will probably always exist and we'll always have to deal with them.

But my problem with the part I quoted from your post, is that it's an argument I see too often with anti-gun control assholes: Well, criminals will still get guns or commit crimes even without them.

They are technically right, but I really hate this argument where, if a solution isn't a 100% perfect one that will lead to a crimeless utopia, it isn't worth implementing. There's probably a more succinct name for this fallacy, but the thing is, gun control advocates aren't saying that if we implement tighter gun control regs, there will never be any more jagoffs committing attacks on massive groups of people. What we're saying is that in implementing this regulation, we can reduce the number of shooting incidents and in turn, reduce the number of people maimed and killed in these incidents.

I apologize that I cannot completely vouch for this website, but if Mass Shooting Tracker is right, we are at about 45 mass shootings just in 2018 alone. That's nearly as many days as there's been in 2018 so far!

It'd be nice if no entitled asshole decided to express his rage at the world by filling people full of lead ever again, but while that's not likely to ever completely go away, any reduction in the number would be nice. If the number for 2018 so far, was 20 instead of 45, that would still mean fewer people being killed or maimed, just for the crime of living their everyday life, and fewer families having to bury their loved ones. Any reductions in any of those numbers is something to celebrate.
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  #54  
Old 19 February 2018, 04:16 AM
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I conducted a little research on Wikipedia on school shootings. They have a good definition that they applied to the article about the definition of a school shooting, but it included some casualty numbers that I would not necessarily include (such as after a shooting, the shooter leaves the school and shoots others in his getaway, those casualties are counted).

For my methodology, all I did was start at Columbine and count to the shooting in Florida.

Some highlights:

- 212 school shootings (where students were involved)
- 280 fatalities (not sure if the shooter is counted in any of those)
- 483 wounded
- 763 total casualties
- averaging ~16 students killed per year
- averaging ~27 students wounded per year
- averaging ~43 student casualties per year
- averaging ~12 shootings per year

These are just numbers. I was looking for some specific information and the Wikipedia page had the numbers laid out and I started digging in another direction.

I know most Americans want something done, and I would love that it get done. But the past 18 years has been horrifying in this regard.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School..._United_States

Last edited by UEL; 19 February 2018 at 04:33 AM.
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  #55  
Old 19 February 2018, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
They are technically right, but I really hate this argument where, if a solution isn't a 100% perfect one that will lead to a crimeless utopia, it isn't worth implementing. There's probably a more succinct name for this fallacy,
Perfect solution fallacy or "The perfect is the enemy of the good" (Voltaire).
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  #56  
Old 19 February 2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
Edit: here in Australia where guns are a lot harder to get hold of we've had several mass attacks where the perpetrator simply drove a car into a crowd of people. One such instance had 6 deaths. I'm very much in favour of gun control laws but they're still only a treatment of a symptom and not the underlying issues.
Of course they are. We don't have a cure for the underlying issues.

ETA: Also, people here use cars to kill people, too. See: Charlottesville last year.
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  #57  
Old 21 February 2018, 12:04 AM
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United States Florida shooting: West Point admits murdered hero

Peter Wang, 15, who was one of 17 killed in the 14 February attack, was admitted to the class of 2025 at his dream school, West Point Academy. He was a member of the US Army Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps (JROTC), a school programme for potential US military officers.

Peter was in uniform when he was fatally shot while holding the door for others fleeing a gunman at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, witnesses say.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43132215
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  #58  
Old 21 February 2018, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
Peter Wang, 15, who was one of 17 killed in the 14 February attack, was admitted to the class of 2025 at his dream school, West Point Academy. He was a member of the US Army Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps (JROTC), a school programme for potential US military officers.
So, apparently, was the shooter.

Quote:
The shooting suspect, Mr. Cruz, had also been a member of his school’s Army Junior R.O.T.C., and had “excelled” in air rifle marksmanship contests with other schools in the area in a program that was supported by a grant from the National Rifle Association Foundation, according to The Associated Press. He was wearing his maroon Junior R.O.T.C. emblem polo shirt when he was arrested after the shooting, The A.P. reported.

“We all have those shirts,” Angelyse Perez, an 18-year-old senior and a company commander, told The Washington Post. “We’re never wearing them again. We’re going to destroy them all.”
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  #59  
Old 21 February 2018, 07:35 AM
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Jaded Florida State Rep's aide fired after calling Parkland student activists "actors"

Florida State Representative's aide fired after calling Parkland student activists "actors"

A Florida state representative has apparently fired an aide who emailed a reporter a claim that two survivors of a south Florida school shooting were actors. Republican Rep. Shawn Harrison tweeted a comment that he didn't agree with the "insensitive and inappropriate comments" made by aide Benjamin Kelly.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/benjami...rvative-media/
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  #60  
Old 21 February 2018, 01:42 PM
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And even after being fired, the jerk can't admit that he was spreading lies.

ETA: Maybe that's why he was fired, come to think of it.
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