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  #21  
Old 10 April 2017, 05:59 PM
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The problem here is that he was not denied boarding. All the passengers had boarded and were seated when this whole thing happened. According to some articles I read it is very unusual to go to the extreme of having to take passengers off the plane, they try to handle this kind of thing at the gate for obvious reasons.
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  #22  
Old 10 April 2017, 06:04 PM
overyonder overyonder is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
The problem here is that he was not denied boarding. All the passengers had boarded and were seated when this whole thing happened. According to some articles I read it is very unusual to go to the extreme of having to take passengers off the plane, they try to handle this kind of thing at the gate for obvious reasons.
I think you didn't read my earlier post. "Denied boarding" means "you can't ride". Regardless whether you're on the plane or not when it happens. "Boarding" is a loose term here.

If you get on the plane (supposing a full flight), and you find out that your seat is broken and cannot be repaired prior to departure, you've been in effect "denied boarding".

After having flown about 1,000 commercial flights as a passenger, I've seen most of it all

[Latest was a person trying to open the exit row window, on the ground. Return to gate, off-load person, tech person come to relatch the window, and off we go].

OY
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  #23  
Old 10 April 2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by overyonder View Post
I think you didn't read my earlier post. "Denied boarding" means "you can't ride". Regardless whether you're on the plane or not when it happens. "Boarding" is a loose term here.
Does the fact that Sue didn't know that, I didn't know that, others here might not have known that, suggest something to you? That maybe lots of passengers don't know it, maybe even including the OP guy?

Quote:
After having flown about 1,000 commercial flights as a passenger, I've seen most of it all
Good for you. How is this relevant to the OP situation? Is this guy to blame for being a less experienced passenger than you?
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  #24  
Old 10 April 2017, 06:10 PM
overyonder overyonder is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Does the fact that Sue didn't know that, I didn't know that, others here might not have known that, suggest something to you? That maybe lots of passengers don't know it, maybe even including the OP guy?
Just trying to explain it, that's all.

OY
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  #25  
Old 10 April 2017, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by overyonder View Post
The point I was trying to make is that it's a fairly well established procedure - not something whimsical.
This isn't news because they "re-accommodated" him after he boarded the plane. It's news because they bodily removed him. That is also not whimsical, but also I'm guessing not "fairly well established procedure."
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  #26  
Old 10 April 2017, 06:15 PM
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Do what you're told, or they'll drag you off the plane. That's the apparent explanation, as far as I can see.
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  #27  
Old 10 April 2017, 07:16 PM
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OY,
I didn't see a definition of "boarding" on the CFR Section 250.5 or other sections of the statute. You're saying that the definition is something like "boarding=passenger manifest delivered to pilot and doors closed for departure"? Are there additional statues, DOT policy, or airline policy that provides that definition?
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  #28  
Old 10 April 2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreams of Thinking Machines View Post
OY,
I didn't see a definition of "boarding" on the CFR Section 250.5 or other sections of the statute.
I'm going to be horrifically nit-picky here and point out that nothing in the CFR is a statute. The CFR is the code of regulations, which are written by the agencies. The boundaries of the regulations are set by laws, but the actual text is not.

Seaboe
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  #29  
Old 10 April 2017, 07:55 PM
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It could have been worse. I could have written 'statue.'
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  #30  
Old 10 April 2017, 08:46 PM
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I read somewhere that one of the factors the computer uses to decide who to kick off is when you booked your ticket, which seems like a terrible determining factor, since there's a strong chance someone booked a ticket at the last minute because they had to.
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  #31  
Old 10 April 2017, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by chillas View Post
Heck, in what other business is it legal to knowingly sell services you do not have adequate resources to provide?
Not that I think it's a good practice in either business but hotels do it all the time.
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  #32  
Old 10 April 2017, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by HelloLlama View Post
I read somewhere that one of the factors the computer uses to decide who to kick off is when you booked your ticket, which seems like a terrible determining factor, since there's a strong chance someone booked a ticket at the last minute because they had to.
Continental's CEO said that ticket price is an important factor (lowest price is more likely), as such that doesn't work with last minute booking - usually those are more expensive.

OY
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  #33  
Old 10 April 2017, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloLlama View Post
I read somewhere that one of the factors the computer uses to decide who to kick off is when you booked your ticket, which seems like a terrible determining factor, since there's a strong chance someone booked a ticket at the last minute because they had to.
That's a really good point. The few times I've booked at the last minute it's been due to deaths in the family .
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  #34  
Old 10 April 2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloLlama View Post
I read somewhere that one of the factors the computer uses to decide who to kick off is when you booked your ticket, which seems like a terrible determining factor, since there's a strong chance someone booked a ticket at the last minute because they had to.

I'm pretty sure my white, manager, super-elite flier (late)husband would not have been voluntold to de-plane even if he'd booked last minute, though.
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  #35  
Old 10 April 2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by overyonder View Post
Ultra-low fares can somewhat be blamed for higher load factors, which leads to denied boarding situations.
This explains most "idiotic" (scare quotes for a reason) airline policies. They're not really that stupid, it's just that when you have razor thin profit margins (or, like the airline industry, are often losing money and can only stay afloat with government subsidies) you have to do "idiotic" things like take into account the odds that a service sold will not be used. Doesn't mean you can't still collect from the no-show, but it does mean you can plan to collect in advance from the extra people you sell seats to in anticipation. And that means you can charge less per ticket while still covering the costs of a flight. And that means you can edge out the competition (until the competition does the same thing, in which case neither of you can stop).

It's kind of like that thread we had on "hidden city ticketing," why it is actually harmful to the industry and other passengers for people to exploit such tickets, and why it can make sense to charge more for a short-distance trip than a long-distance trip without having "NFBSK the customer" as the motive.

No one ever said the optimization of the human experience would be fun.
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  #36  
Old 11 April 2017, 12:02 AM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
ETA: The airline business is so odd. In what other business would you even inconvenience a customer to re-deploy your employees, let alone remove him against his will?
They needed the crew in another city to fly another scheduled flight. So their option (besides better planning ) was let the passenger fly then cancel another flight with perhaps 100 people on it. They would then need to pay all those people the cost of the cancelled flight + penalty. If it wasn't for the bad publicity, the financial decision to bump a passenger was pretty clear cut.
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  #37  
Old 11 April 2017, 12:14 AM
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United couldn't charter a flight for its own employees?
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  #38  
Old 11 April 2017, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
...So their option...
Just the one option, no others? Sounds like false dilemma territory.
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  #39  
Old 11 April 2017, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
No one ever said the optimization of the human experience would be fun.
Depends on your definition of the word "optimization", I suppose.
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  #40  
Old 11 April 2017, 12:47 AM
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True. It depends on the objective function. Since we're dealing with industry, that would likely be profit, but could also be human souls consumed. Although (g)you might think you value happiness, it may turn out you value money (cost) more. Especially when it comes to airline travel. So that's what an airline looking to maximize profit will look at: cost to the consumer, not their happiness (at least not at the expense of cost, provided some bare minimum "constraint" is met).

Don't like airline service? We should all look in a mirror: we're the monsters they sell it to.
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