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  #21  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:35 PM
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You know Elvis wasn't exactly a paragon of virtue either but he's got a stamp.

I don't care who is on a stamp as long as it has the right denomination of money on it. I don't even really buy stamps any more, I just run my mail through the postal meter at work.

I think Christmas was the last time I bought stamps.

I'm sure the USPS is just trying to get people, any people, to buy their product since they're about to go the way of the dodo.
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  #22  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Man, you're picky.
*Laughs* Yeah I expect those who are held up as some sort of the ultimate pinnicle of human goodness and caring actually do something good.
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  #23  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:36 PM
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Well, she did do some good.

But she was an imperfect human, as well, and her imperfections do not undo the good she did.

I think that goes for pretty much everybody.
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  #24  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:41 PM
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It is at the end of the day just a bloody stamp and for a limited time only. Most of them will end up in the trash or the recycling. A few will end up in the hands of philatalists.

A few years ago our Christmas stamps featured a series of quite frankly appalling rubbish paintings by four year olds. They were horrible to look at, truly they were. All I cared about was that if I stuck one on an envelope my letter would get there.
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  #25  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:44 PM
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So it's not a worthwhile discussion to have, Eddy?
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  #26  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Well, she did do some good.
Not much. And a lot of harm.

Not enough to warrant the practical demigod status she's obtained. Why I live in a world in which this woman's name is practically a synonym for "caring" while I could ask a stadium full of people and find 1 or 2 people who knows who Norman Borluag is is beyond me.

Norman Borlaug saved a billion (to quote Penn Jillette "That's a Carl Sagan billion with a B") people from starvation. Mother Teresa made people pray while they died and channeled slush funds from one of the biggest scamsters in history to a dictator who is responsible in no small part for the current state of Haiti, earthquake not withstanding.

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I think that goes for pretty much everybody.
"Everybody" doesn't get Noble Prizes and pushes for Canonization.
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  #27  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rujasu View Post
I can't remember ever licking a stamp, they've been self-adhesive as long as I can remember.
That's because you're really young. I don't know if stamps in the UK, where Eddylizard lives, are self-stick or not.

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Sealing the envelope is a different matter, however.
FYI, you can buy envelopes with peel-off adhesive on the flap in just about any store.

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Also, ew.
On that, we agree.
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  #28  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:48 PM
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Why do you care that she gets made a saint, though? You aren't Catholic, as I recall.

I think it's probably a stretch to tangentially blame her for what happened in Haiti. Baby Doc's been gone a long time, and we've invaded a few times since then. If we're going to blame her, we deserve a significant helping of it, too.
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  #29  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Why do you care that she gets made a saint, though? You aren't Catholic, as I recall.
Well obviously I could give a rat's ass about Canonizing someone. I could quote a laundry list of awards and recognition this woman got throughout the entire secular and religious spectrum. I just used the push to get her Sainthood as an example along with the Nobel, which I see I managed to spell wrong yet again, due to how rare it is for someone to even be considered for it so soon after their death.
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  #30  
Old 16 March 2010, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
So it's not a worthwhile discussion to have, Eddy?
Where did you get that? Of course it is a worthwhile discussion - but my view is that those who are so strongly opposed to the stamp, and those who are strongly opposed to those who are opposed to the stamp in the OP need a sense of perspective.

I was discussing it from the point of view that a stamp really isn't that important an honour to get excited about enough to start an online round robin letter to the postmaster general.

Hence I have joined rather than rejected the discussion - regardless of whether you agree with me it is I feel a valid point in the debate.

Now let's discuss that as we have been doing.

Last edited by Eddylizard; 16 March 2010 at 05:05 PM.
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  #31  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Yes, you can be a humanitarian with her stances. Unlike many, she actually took care of the actually born.
From what I understand, she kept abandoned babies in sub-minimal care, didn't feed them much, especially if they appeared ill, didn't get them care from doctors, even though she had plenty of doctors offering, because she claimed she was tending their souls, not their bodies. She made sure each one was baptised, and believed that suffering made them closer to Jesus, and assured them a place in Heaven.

She would show visitors a nursery that would have been immediately condemned in the US, and all the children taken away by CPS, and told people that this was how she fought abortion.

Her theology was to get them born and baptised, suffer through short lives, and then they would live forever after in splendor and glory in the presence of Jesus.

I suppose if you believe in Jesus, believe in baptism being necessary for getting into Heaven, and believe that suffering is something Jesus wants you to do, that is all well and good, and MT is doing the Lord's work.

But if you don't believe those things, you get stuck on the part where babies are suffering with inadequate nutrition and untreated illness. Especially, you get stuck on it when people all over the world, Catholic and non donated millions of dollars to MT directly, to her charities, and to her order, plus she had the Nobel money, and it sat in banks, not buying food, not buying clothes, not buying medicine, and doctors and nurses who volunteered to work at her hospitals for free were turned away.
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  #32  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Well, she did do some good.

But she was an imperfect human, as well, and her imperfections do not undo the good she did.

I think that goes for pretty much everybody.
Can you point to one good thing she did, and provide a cite for it? Not something vague, like "she set up a hospital," but with some details about the mission of the hospital, how many doctors were on staff, what sort of treatment philosophy it embraced. Because from what I understand, most of what the press called "hospitals" were just places where people who had been dying one the streets were now dying on cots in tents, which was slightly better, but they got maybe a couple of bowls of rice to eat every day, which was more than they got on the streets, but way less than what I would expect from a place calling itself a "hospital." They were not examined by doctors, for the most part, not given any medication, even pain medication, and harrassed on a regular basis to convert to Catholicism. If they didn't agree, then when they became to weak to argue, they were baptized anyway, which was the real purpose of the hospitals.

The truth is, she never set out to be a humanitarian. She wanted, from her adolescence, to become a nun, and establish her own order. That she did, and relative to her personal goals, is a raging success. She also wanted to increase the reach of Catholicism, which I think is why she chose India, because it was a relatively free country, with a huge population, mostly non-Catholics, and no strong central religion, and it was poor, so she wouldn't have to give people very much to get them to listen to her.

So "she fed the poor" isn't a good example of her humanitarianism either.

Norman Borlaug rocks. People who think it's horrible to have genetically modified food are always people from countries that have never experienced a famine. They should have to go live in Mexico or Pakistan, in an alternate universe with no Norman Borlaug in it.
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  #33  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
I don't know if stamps in the UK, where Eddylizard lives, are self-stick or not.
Most stamps are now self-stick, but that's a pretty recent development.
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  #34  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
Most stamps are now self-stick, but that's a pretty recent development.
It's been 20-some years or so here, which may seem recent to those of us who are more than 20-some years old.
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  #35  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:44 PM
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I thought they euthanised everyone at 30?
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  #36  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Can you point to one good thing she did, and provide a cite for it? Not something vague, like "she set up a hospital," but with some details about the mission of the hospital, how many doctors were on staff, what sort of treatment philosophy it embraced.
Can you name what sort of "treatment philosophy" for any hospital?

So, I'll provide what I can. Mother Teresa House in Lansing, is a hospice. The Mother Teresa Home for the Dying and Destitute in Dehli is a shelter for physically and mentally challenged men.

But here is a doctor, also a nun, who wrote a testimonial about the work she did with Mother Teresa.

There are literally hundreds of missions connected with the Mission of Charity, so I cannot possibly list them all.

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Because from what I understand, most of what the press called "hospitals" were just places where people who had been dying one the streets were now dying on cots in tents, which was slightly better, but they got maybe a couple of bowls of rice to eat every day, which was more than they got on the streets, but way less than what I would expect from a place calling itself a "hospital." They were not examined by doctors, for the most part, not given any medication, even pain medication, and harrassed on a regular basis to convert to Catholicism. If they didn't agree, then when they became to weak to argue, they were baptized anyway, which was the real purpose of the hospitals.
Do you have any cites? I don't doubt at all that there was pressure to be baptized Catholic, but I do question that people were kept in hovels without that information being more well-known.

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So "she fed the poor" isn't a good example of her humanitarianism either.
Why not?
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  #37  
Old 16 March 2010, 05:55 PM
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From the USPS website.

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With this stamp, the U.S. Postal Service recognizes Mother Teresa, who received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979 for her humanitarian work. Noted for her compassion toward the poor and suffering, Mother Teresa, a diminutive Roman Catholic nun and honorary U.S. citizen
I believe they are commemorating her humanitarian work rather than religious views.

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In 1996, President Bill Clinton and the U.S. Congress awarded Mother Teresa honorary U.S. citizenship. As of February 2009, the honor has only been bestowed on five others. Winston Churchill received it in 1963, Raoul Wallenberg in 1981, William Penn and Hannah Callowhill Penn in 1984, and the Marquis de Lafayette in 2002. With the exception of Hannah Callowhill Penn, each of these figures has also appeared on a U.S. postage stamp: the Marquis de Lafayette four times (1952, 1957, 1976, and 1977), William Penn in 1932, Churchill in 1965, and Wallenberg in 1997.
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  #38  
Old 16 March 2010, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
But here is a doctor, also a nun, who wrote a testimonial about the work she did with Mother Teresa.
I think the essence of that article can be summed up in a single statement from it: "Worse than AIDS is the contamination of sin."

The whole article is about "restoring the Image of God in the person," not about feeding or providing medical care to the starving and sick.
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  #39  
Old 16 March 2010, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Do you have any cites? I don't doubt at all that there was pressure to be baptized Catholic, but I do question that people were kept in hovels without that information being more well-known.
http://www.a-voice.org/discern/teresa.htm

Quote:
There have been numerous reports by former workers in her clinics as well as by visiting medical doctors that the patients are not given proper medication and that the beds and furnishings and general conditions more closely resemble an extermination camp than a hospital or clinic. The reports, coming as they do from a variety of independent observers, seem beyond dispute. As one example, Mary London, a volunteer in Calcutta, wrote concerning Mother Teresa's Home for the Dying:

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My initial impression was of all the photographs and footage I've ever seen of Belsen [Nazi death camp] and places like that, because all the patients had shaved heads. No chairs anywhere, there were just these stretcher beds. They're like First World War stretcher beds. There's no garden, no yard even. No nothing. And I thought what is this? This is two rooms with fifty to sixty men in one, fifty to sixty women in another. They're dying. They're not being given a great deal of medical care. They're not being given painkillers really beyond aspirin...for the sort of pain that goes with terminal cancer...
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  #40  
Old 16 March 2010, 06:46 PM
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And the reason for that was her messed up view of religion, that suffering was good for the soul. However, she was providing care that no one else was providing for people no one else would help, and doing so in a manner keeping with her faith.
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