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  #21  
Old 12 October 2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Seth MacFarlane doesn't think that saying "maybe you shouldn't have provoked [your rapist]" is victim blaming, either.
My favorite thing about this hoax story is the end of the supposed quote: "I'm not blaming the victims, but it is their fault."
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  #22  
Old 12 October 2017, 08:39 PM
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Default Explosive Weinstein stories expose mogul's power over media

Explosive stories published in the last week reveal the extent to which Weinstein reportedly intimidated his victims into silence, and used his clout to keep negative stories out of the headlines.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/12/medi...dia/index.html
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  #23  
Old 12 October 2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I haven't actually heard that Hefner resorted to using any kind of force or threats of retribution (though I admit I haven't researched the matter in detail). He may well have used his position as a bribe, of course (and I suspect that a lot of the conduct in his clubs that would be clearly be seen as harassment now, was not looked at that way in the sixties -- which doesn't excuse it, but it makes it less shocking).
Some of the interviews former bunnies have given over the years paint a very poor picture. Like this one.

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I suspect that many people's reaction would be "Well, it's Hefner, his whole fame is built around that kind of thing -- anyone who wanted to work for him or appear in his magazine knows what she's getting into." Whereas Weinstein was, in theory, a respected producer of all kinds of films, so the behavior might be seen as less expected (at least in the 21st century -- things I've read about the early days of Hollywood seem to indicate that it was pretty much standard operating procedure back in the 1930's...)
Yeah, though really the casting couch doesn't seem to have ever gone away, it's just been ignored until something big like this blows it into the open.
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  #24  
Old 13 October 2017, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
Who here believe Weinstein's excuse of 'I grew up in the 60s/70s when that sort of thing was more acceptable.'?

Lots of other men grew up/came of age in the same time period and they're not cads.
While I know the 60s and 70s werenít the most enlightened when it came to sexual harassment policies, at the same time, I donít think it was considered okay to whip out your penis and masturbate into a potted plant, even then. Canít think of an era when that was ever considered okay.
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  #25  
Old 13 October 2017, 11:13 PM
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Some victims stayed friends with Harvey Weinstein. I did the same with my rapist. Hereís why.

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I was reading Ronan Farrowís excellent New Yorker article on Harvey Weinsteinís alleged history of rape and sexual harassment, when I got to Weinsteinís alleged rape of actress Asia Argento. Argento claims that Weinstein performed oral sex on her, against her will, in a hotel room.

Argento goes on to say that she grew close to Weinstein after he assaulted her ó accepting gifts, meeting his mother, and having consensual sex with him.

Once upon a time, my rapist, another well-connected and accomplished man, did the same to me.
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  #26  
Old 14 October 2017, 03:09 PM
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It occurs to me that, throughout the course of human history and most likely prehistory, quite a few women have had no choice but to live in a relationship with their rapists.

In many times and places, women had no choice who to marry. (Sometimes the men didn't have much choice either.) And in many times and places, once married it was very hard to get back out of the marriage, even in cases in which one got a choice at the beginning.

Being able to get on friendly terms with a person who has at least once raped you, and may be continuing to do so, was most likely an important survival mechanism for a whole lot of one's ancestors; and it may have gotten thoroughly enough into a lot of people's heads that, even if they're now living in a situation in which reporting the rape and getting out of the relationship has become a possible choice, they use that embedded mechanism for dealing with the situation instead. (And, of course, "possible choice" doesn't always mean "practical choice".)

ETA: You know what else occurs to me? I've always been puzzled by the common (yes, I know, not ubiquitous) assumption that, among boys and young men, physical fights can lead to comfortable friendly relationships once the fights settle who's boss -- that, in other words, boys and men are supposed to routinely form friendly relationships with people who started off by beating them up. But somehow the people who say 'it must not have been rape if the raped person later acted friendly towards the rapist' rarely or never seem to say 'X (male) can't possibly have beaten up Y (also male) because Y acted friendly to X later on'. -- and for that matter, hazing (including really nasty hazing that may include mimicries of rape) is supposed to lead to feelings of brotherly fellowship between the hazed and the hazers.

Last edited by thorny locust; 14 October 2017 at 03:20 PM.
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  #27  
Old 14 October 2017, 05:23 PM
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There are still countries where “marry your rapist” laws exist. Thankfully in some places that is slowly changing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/w...ddle-east.html
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  #28  
Old 14 October 2017, 10:30 PM
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Default Harvey Weinstein expelled from motion picture academy

Embattled film mogul Harvey Weinstein ó a once-dominant force in the Academy Awards who rewrote the rules of Oscar campaigning ó has been expelled from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in response to mounting allegations of sexual harassment and assault against him.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...014-story.html


But what about Roman Polanski? Bill Cosby? Woody Allen? All of them are members, too.
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  #29  
Old 14 October 2017, 10:48 PM
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Someone I was watching on the TV news made a good point about that IMO. There are producers and executives, and Weinstein was certainly one them too apparently, who are known for there screaming and threatening and bullying behavior on the set and off. Is that behavior acceptable but sexual harassment isn't? Where does the line get drawn? They weren't trying to excuse Weinstein, or Polanski or Cosby or anyone else but rather to point out that extreme Men Behaving Badly has always been considered just part of the business up to now. Is Weinstein the tipping point or the scapegoat?
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  #30  
Old 14 October 2017, 11:16 PM
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I hope it’s a tipping point. Polanski had been convicted of child rape when they awarded him an Oscar a few years ago.
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  #31  
Old 14 October 2017, 11:47 PM
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Displays of uncontrolled male anger are too often excused in some corporate settings as well. I saw a meme a while back contrasting the tolerance for that behavior with the attitude toward a woman who cries in the workplace.
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  #32  
Old 15 October 2017, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
I hope itís a tipping point. Polanski had been convicted of child rape when they awarded him an Oscar a few years ago.
Me too. This has to stop.
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  #33  
Old 15 October 2017, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
Who here believe Weinstein's excuse of 'I grew up in the 60s/70s when that sort of thing was more acceptable.'?

Lots of other men grew up/came of age in the same time period and they're not cads.
Bull droppings. I grew up then and find him and his ilk criminal and repugnant.
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  #34  
Old 16 October 2017, 12:39 PM
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Brad, your post is directed at Weinstein right?
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  #35  
Old 16 October 2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
But what about Roman Polanski? Bill Cosby? Woody Allen? All of them are members, too.
It's something of a more open question with Woody Allen. (I happen to have a Facebook friend who knows Allen and gets pretty vehement on the subject. I don't consider him 100% objective, of course, but he makes a fairly convincing argument.)

For that matter, I admit that while (1) I consider Weinstein's alleged behavior reprehensible and likely criminal, and (2) the sheer number of people who are making the allegations convinces me that a substantial number of them are almost certainly true, I still get a little bit queasy about people being convicted in the "court of public opinion." You have someone who has, as yet, had no criminal charges filed against him (much less has he been convicted), and I don't recall even reading about any currently outstanding civil cases (though he has made out-of-court settlements with a number of women). For his company to fire him, or the Academy to expel him, seems to me to possibly be premature, and quite possibly legally perilous.

It's a tough call, though, particularly with these sorts of cases, where criminal convictions and even civil settlements may be difficult to get. It may be that 'shunning' is the only real punishment that he will face.
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  #36  
Old 16 October 2017, 03:54 PM
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I'm confident Weinstein has the resources to respond accordingly to any illegal actions taken against him. But I doubt very much his firing or his expulsion from the Academy would be actionable.

The terms of his employment were probably governed by a contract, a protection most Americans don't have.* If the firing violated the terms of that contract, I assume he could sue. But IMU such contracts generally include a way for employers to get rid of employees who become PR liabilities.

As for being expelled from the Academy, I'm guessing they can expel any member they like for any reason they want, barring discrimination against a protected class.

*IANAL, but I'm pretty sure if he were an at-will employee, there'd be no issue firing him.

ETA: The reason our legal system assumes innocence is to protect citizens against the massive power of the government. Weinstein's former employer and the Academy do not wield that power, and they are no more legally obligated to assume his innocence than any individual is (although of course any individual or organization is free to assume innocence if they choose to do so).
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  #37  
Old 17 October 2017, 06:10 PM
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Mark Evanier talks a bit about the subject, and relays a story of an actress friend of his who experienced a similar situation, and why she said she did not report it. It's disturbingly understandable.

In a separate post, he notes that Weinstein's being kicked out of the Academy isn't really much of a punishment. (He does note that it's not something that happens often; he can't recall off-hand another case of someone being ejected for character issues.)
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