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  #101  
Old 21 June 2018, 01:04 AM
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  #102  
Old 21 June 2018, 01:29 AM
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UEL:

Of course it's America.

And Germany, and England, and Japan, and China, and Rwanda, and yes Canada. And everyplace else in the world. Every place there are humans.

If you think only the USA is vulnerable to this crap (using that word's unfair to useful fertilizer, but I have to put something there), you're naive -- and you're in danger; that's part of how Trump got elected here. And if you think this crap is all there is to America, you're not paying attention.

We've been here before; and worse. (Where was the outcry and the marching in the streets when we locked up Japanese citizens? When lynching was a party, bring the kids?) We didn't stay there. Yes, we could go back. It's a damn long battle and we have to keep having it, over and over and over. And so do you. Don't kid yourself, just because the loudest noise is over here right now.

But there's a reason it's loud over here right now. And it's because it's not only Trump and his cohorts making the noise.
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  #103  
Old 21 June 2018, 02:39 AM
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I realise other countries are prone to it. But the populations of the countries don't seem to revel in it. Italy, the closest to it, does not have populations calling for the deaths of those trying to cross the Med.

But, the US seems comfortable with its guns, poor health care coverage, isolationism, American exceptionalism, bullying, hypocrisy, and racism.

Because the people are not pushing their government to change it. There is a loud minority, but there is no movement on any of these issues.

Even in Canada, when people are not happy, governments take notice. Then governments change.

Not the US.

I think the people that post on this board are fine Americans. But, I'm beginning to believe that you are in the minority. Your abilities to reason and look at issues from (to some degree) multiple angles sets you apart from the majority.
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  #104  
Old 21 June 2018, 03:26 AM
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I'll admit, after the last couple days worth of headlines, it really feels like things here are just too normal. Like everyone's just pretending that nothing's happening.
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  #105  
Old 21 June 2018, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post

Because the people are not pushing their government to change it. There is a loud minority, but there is no movement on any of these issues.

Even in Canada, when people are not happy, governments take notice. Then governments change.

Not the US.
Nixon got a second term despite the turbulence that surrounded his administration as did Bush II. Always thought that was odd. But in terms, at least, of recent memory nothing these men did in the entirety of their stay in the WH compares to an average week for Trump.
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  #106  
Old 21 June 2018, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Nixon got a second term despite the turbulence that surrounded his administration as did Bush II. Always thought that was odd.
I, like you , am too young to remember Nixon directly. But, in my readings, it was his re-election that caused his major downfall. His policies prior to that, while contentious, were political policies forwarded by a party and debated. But the key thing here is that the US Senate/House did respond to the will of the people and move to impeach. Nixon resigned because he knew he would lose. There, the system worked.

GWB did have that whole Invasion of Iraq thing against him. But again, his politics were purely Republican. And while a lot of people did not like what he did. Many more did. And the big thing about GWB when it comes to comparing against DJT is that I firmly believe GWB thought he was doing what was best for the US. DJT is only doing what is best for DJT.

I have reached Trump saturation. My faith that the US is an example of what growing democracies can aspire to is gone.
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  #107  
Old 21 June 2018, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
I realise other countries are prone to it. But the populations of the countries don't seem to revel in it. Italy, the closest to it, does not have populations calling for the deaths of those trying to cross the Med.

But, the US seems comfortable with its guns, poor health care coverage, isolationism, American exceptionalism, bullying, hypocrisy, and racism.
Please. Remember when minarets were banned in Switzerland? Face coverings in France? Roving bands of white supremesist thugs in Sweden? Yeah, that’s all pretty recent.

And don’t even get me started on racism in Japan. It’s still considered almost "quaint" there.

If race relations seem better in those places, it’s only because their societies are too homogeneous to allow their minorities a real voice.

ETA: Oh, and let’s not forget the UK and Brexit, because that had NOTHING to do with isolationism and xenophobia, right?

ETA2: And while I’m at it: Woman deemed 'too annoying' to get Swiss citizenship wins battle for passport

Last edited by ASL; 21 June 2018 at 09:25 PM.
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  #108  
Old 21 June 2018, 09:47 PM
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In response to the US being noticeably worse (and don't get me wrong, we suck right now): Doug Ford.
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  #109  
Old 21 June 2018, 10:09 PM
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We're supposed to be the good example, not the bad. And yes, other countries have their bad apples too.
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  #110  
Old 21 June 2018, 10:14 PM
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Believe me Doug Ford scares the hell out of me! But that said, he doesn't have access to nuclear weapons. What's hard to take about Trump is these are elected officials doing rotten things and being glorified for it all over the news, night after night after night .
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  #111  
Old 21 June 2018, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
We're supposed to be the good example, not the bad. And yes, other countries have their bad apples too.
And that's the difference: other countries have their own problems with these kind of people, but they don't have America's military.
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  #112  
Old 21 June 2018, 11:19 PM
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That's an actual difference that does indeed matter, crocoduck_hunter. (Though I doubt it makes much difference to the people who get persecuted, or murdered, in other countries that those countries can't potentially do quite as much damage.) All the more reason to keep fighting this round.

But that doesn't mean the country as a whole is uniquely evil.

I was going to start copying and pasting links to the effect that quite a lot of people aren't just pretending there's nothing happening, but I don't know where I would have stopped, and I'm not at all sure that it's the best use of my time.
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  #113  
Old 22 June 2018, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
We're supposed to be the good example, not the bad. And yes, other countries have their bad apples too.
In any case, other countries being awful towards minorities, doesn’t justify the US being awful towards minorities. To use a maxim my mom has pretty much hammered into my head, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
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  #114  
Old 22 June 2018, 04:04 AM
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No one is arguing that, at least not that I can see in this thread. What people are arguing, and is very off-putting, is that America is somehow uniquely depraved.

Kind of like if someone came in here spewing racial stereotypes against purples and someone shot back "friend, it’s not just purple people."
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  #115  
Old 22 June 2018, 06:41 AM
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UEL,

What should we be doing? What would be effective? What would make this administration actually change? If you know, please tell me.

I had a post mostly drafted to say #notallAmericans, but no. You are right. We have to own this. We are currently horrible. We elected this president, and it is inexcusable. It isn't enough to say I didn't vote for him.

When Bush became president even though he did not really win Florida, I did the whole "not my president" thing. But when I see people saying this is not my America, or this is not who we are, I see the problem with thinking that. This is exactly who we are at this moment. We don't get to pretend otherwise.

Trump is my president. Every vile bit of him. I'm going to do what I can to make that change, but having elected him at all will be an enduring shame for this country.

Last edited by erwins; 22 June 2018 at 07:01 AM.
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  #116  
Old 22 June 2018, 12:11 PM
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Trump got elected, IMO, in large part because all too many people were, and some still are, absolutely certain that he couldn't be that bad and he couldn't do that much damage even if he is that bad because hey, this is the USA, and Things Like That Can't Happen Here.

Things like that can happen here. They could also happen in Canada. It worries me to hear anyone effectively making the argument, about any combination of countries, that the problem is that Country X is Uniquely Awful. The problem is that Country X, just like Countries A through YYYY27, is full of humans.

And no, of course it doesn't justify the USA in doing terrible things to people because people in other countries have done, and are doing, worse. But, as ASL said, I don't think anyone posting in this thread has said that it does.
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  #117  
Old 22 June 2018, 12:28 PM
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It is #NotAllAmericans...
but it is enough Americans to be scary

It's the debate about gun control that never goes anywhere because of a rabid vocal minority
It's the debate about affordable healthcare that goes nowhere because of the same
It's Sheriffs like Arpaio, and Clarke that get away for years with violating civil rights and get away with it too, even after the meddlesome kids unmask them to the world...

I have some muslim in-laws, most of my in-laws are "brown". Every time we consider taking a trip to the US, we weigh whether it's worth the risk of getting in trouble at the border or going through customs.
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  #118  
Old 22 June 2018, 01:31 PM
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I think, when it was happening, Nazi Germany was uniquely awful. But the Nazis did not come to power because Germany was uniquely awful. It can happen anywhere, and complacency should be guarded against but once it does happen, one has to stop saying it isn't uniquely awful. There were lots of Germans who did not agree with or support the Nazis, but that did not make Nazi Germany not really so bad on the whole.

There are other terrible countries in the world. Countries that commit human rights abuses and have awful, repressive, destructive regimes. But few of them used to be beacons of democracy, none used to be "leaders of the Free world" and have possibly unmatched military might.

Before the recent atrocities were committed at the border, I thought we could weather this thing. The country would be damaged, some of it irreversible, but we could get by for 4 years and then work to undo as much damage as possible and to try to heal and prevent it from happening again. But I don't know how to recover from a policy of intentionally inflicting permanent trauma on children to punish their parents and to try to score political points.

Dehumanizing people leads to atrocities. People have said we should just shoot all the people crossing the border. People are already viewing other humans as vermin.

I wish I knew more what to do. But I think the first step is to stop saying we aren't so bad, and there are other bad could tried out there, too.

Last edited by erwins; 22 June 2018 at 01:41 PM.
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  #119  
Old 22 June 2018, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post

Dehumanizing people leads to atrocities. People have said we should just shoot all the people crossing the border. People are already viewing other humans as vermin.
Friends were linking articles and memes about the migrant issue on FB (all negative towards the WH) but of course not all the comments were negative. What was truly disheartening were the number of posts from those who refused to talk about the people crossing the border as people, let alone as children or babies. The most popular term was "Illegals". When you stop, willfully, intentionally, stop referring to people as people there is a big problem - and while that problem didn't start with Trump, he's the majorette with the baton up front leading the band .

Last edited by Sue; 22 June 2018 at 02:08 PM. Reason: grammar - apparently I have none
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  #120  
Old 22 June 2018, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
there are other bad could tried out there, too.
Should say "other bad countries out there." Ugh. I hate it when I miss the weird autocorrect errors.

Sue, there's long been an effort here to change that terminology. The people are not illegal. A large portion have not even committed any crime, but are out of status, which is a civil matter. (If you enter on a tourist visa and overstay, e.g.) And those that did commit a misdemeanor by entering unlawfully did not become illegal people.

Last edited by erwins; 22 June 2018 at 02:12 PM.
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