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  #21  
Old 30 January 2014, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGuyWitBluGlasses View Post
100,000,000/ 600/1.36 = 1 death per 123,000 'driving days' vehicle
So basically people be limited to a few jumps a year and it would be safer.

Plus, about driving being "essential" (give me a break face): A lot of driving is completely unnecessary. It's even OK for 16 year olds to drive for pleasure in most states. Also, I would like to point out that not all jumping is done for pleasure. We do have many people who do it as part of their job and even some minors who do it in school or as part of their training.
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  #22  
Old 30 January 2014, 05:24 AM
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"Doing it for the thrill" has nothing to do with risk. People ride on roller coasters - rides which are designed to be completely safe, in terms of risk of both death and injury, and find them to be exciting.

The difference is in how people approach their love of their sport. I had a roommate who became hooked on skydiving and took it up as the very serious and expensive hobby that it can be. The thing is that he did not put up pictures, cover his car in bumper stickers, or even try to get any of his friends to do the same. In other words, he didn't care who knew what he was doing. But some people do it for the "fame" of what they have done - maybe not quite a "bucket list" but sometimes an "in your face" list. Some people take up dangerous hobbies, or do dangerous things - like swimming with sharks or running with the bulls.

I have a very good friend who used to take up esoteric hobbies - foil fencing, iaido, underwater hockey, glider flying - some of which lasted only a little while. I think he tried to do unconventional things to specifically stand out, and specifically avoided anything "common" or "pedestrian". He wouldn't be caught dead playing "inner tube water polo", which was a more mainstream fun and social (not to mention co-ed) sport activity, but rather, chose something notably different.

Not all parachute jumping done for pleasure? Sure - I'd imagine that would be 99% military and maybe 1% as search-and-rescue. But even then, it isn't mandatory - the US has an all-volunteer military so I would imagine that only those who want to, or at least are open to the idea of jumping out of an airplane. As for minors, well, one must be 17 to join the US military (with parental consent) - and if you're not talking about that, ganzfeld, what kind of minors are skydiving as part of their training?
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  #23  
Old 30 January 2014, 05:30 AM
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Then what was all that about people doing it "because it's dangerous" or "for bragging rights"?? It seems to be 1) your own prejudices and 2) irrelevant to the question of the risk. Did you just want to complain about people you think are braggarts and chose this subject as an opportunity? If so, fine, but, again, irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether they chose the job or not. It's still part of the job. And, yet, still I don't see the relevance. People drive for pleasure. What kind of pleasure they get from something (i.e. bragging rights or whatever) is none of our business.
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  #24  
Old 30 January 2014, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
Nevertheless, it's more dangerous than driving. Just admit you made a knee jerk statement about people's knee jerk reactions.
Yes, I did. I thought it was much safer based on what I have been told by skydivers. No one I've known has bragged about it being risky. I'm not convinced by the comparisons presented so far but it's certainly more risky than I had thought.
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  #25  
Old 30 January 2014, 06:29 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Skydiving is pretty safe, but the margin for errors is tiny.

A friend of mine, for example, quit that hobby after the main parachute snagged on his foot (a phenomenon called horse shoeing), so he dropped it and tried the reserve chute, which also snagged. By the time he had untangled it, he was tumbling, so the reserve didn't deploy properly, and he hit the ground pretty hard and broke his foot. Had he been a second slower, he would have made crater instead (figuratively).

One must also remember that many of the accidents are not "chute failed, splat". It's far from uncommon for them to hit power lines, trees, buildings, roads with traffic and so on. We have a very active parachuting club in my home town, and in the summer, on a nice day, you see parachutes in the sky all the time from my porch. A couple of school mates lived next to the airfield, and they had lots of storys about helping skydivers down from trees, helping them when they were on one side of a high fence and the chute on the other side and so on.

Then we have the ascent. My father was a pilot and flew quite a lot with skydivers (both fix wign and helicopter), and he said that they were a crazy bunch. When you do skydiving, you remove the door from the aircraft, and usually the seats as well. It was not uncommon for them to sit on the floor, unbelted, and lean out the door opening all the way from take-off to jump. A rabbit hole in the grass when taking off and they can get bumped out, and a chute won't help you there...

It's a bit like professional wrestling. No one is supposed to get hurt and everything is designed so that no one should get hurt, but the margins for error are tiny and when things go wrong, the consequencies are severe.
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  #26  
Old 30 January 2014, 12:38 PM
DaGuyWitBluGlasses DaGuyWitBluGlasses is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitz1980 View Post
I've got to agree with you on that one. How many kids per year are injured by high school athletics such as cheerleading, gymnastics or football? When a teen athlete is injured we don't hear a chorus of "what parent would let a 16 year old cheer, quarterback, ect" when the number of teens hospitalized for those activities is measured in thousands per year.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...football-teams
"There are nearly 16,000 high school football teams across the country"

35 fatalities at the high school level for 2000-2009. (this includes those that died in practice)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_...rican_football

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...is-set-up.html
8-10 Games per season excluding playoffs. So 80 games minimum over those 10 years.

11 players per team. let's assume no substitutions, to maximize the death rate.

16000*80*11 / 35 = 1 death per every 402,285 per game-days per person. (But

Skydiving was 1 in 28,000.

So it's at least 14 times more dangerous. (But should be closer to 30 times)
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  #27  
Old 30 January 2014, 02:35 PM
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How did you get 1 in 28000?? You're counting per game for one and per some imagined max number per day for another.
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  #28  
Old 30 January 2014, 03:27 PM
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Plus fitz referred to injuries and hospitalizations, not fatalities.
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  #29  
Old 30 January 2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Then what was all that about people doing it "because it's dangerous" or "for bragging rights"?? It seems to be 1) your own prejudices and 2) irrelevant to the question of the risk. Did you just want to complain about people you think are braggarts and chose this subject as an opportunity? If so, fine, but, again, irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether they chose the job or not. It's still part of the job. And, yet, still I don't see the relevance. People drive for pleasure. What kind of pleasure they get from something (i.e. bragging rights or whatever) is none of our business.
It is all about honesty here. People do choose exotic and dangerous hobbies for bragging rights. I don't like that attitude - and they should simply do what they do for themselves, not throw it around, not spin it with lies and rhetoric, and not suggest that we should all be doing it. More to the point, they should not imply that the rest of us are lesser people for not doing that activity. That's the bragging rights issue, and let's be honest here - that is probably the attitude that would have gotten this girl killed if not for a "freak happenstance". Falling 3000 feet should have been fatal. Now the trouble that she went through to do this activity - no doubt in my mind that there were going to be tweets, facebook posts, pictures, etc. It's pretty consistent with the way most teenagers act and behave.

People do drive for pleasure, but they also do so out of necessity - it facilitates most every aspect of modern life. I don't know of anyone who skydives out of necessity, in a job they did not deliberately choose. Manipulating the facts about how really and truly dangerous the sport is (it's all about the consequences of error) is rather disingenuous.
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  #30  
Old 30 January 2014, 04:16 PM
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There are other reasons to enjoy skydiving other than bragging rights. Often you wouldn't even know people did it if you weren't yourself part of the sport. And it's not necessarily to live dangerously, either, Some of the most careful, meticulous people I know skydive. They have to be both those things: they pack their own parachutes.
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  #31  
Old 30 January 2014, 04:17 PM
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Firejumpers jump out of necessity, in a job they chose.
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  #32  
Old 30 January 2014, 04:45 PM
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Once again, it's a matter of confirmation bias. All of the people you know are sky divers are braggarts about it, but what about the people who sky dive who aren't braggarts. You probably don't know that they sky dive because they aren't bringing it up. So you only count the ones you know about, and you (wrongly) assume their behavior accounts for 100% of skydivers.
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  #33  
Old 30 January 2014, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Firejumpers jump out of necessity, in a job they chose.
I'm pretty sure military personnel like Marines, and such may also be required sometimes to jump out of planes.

SAR personnel may even be required to jump out of a helicopter, with no 'chute, into freezing water, to rescue someone.

I guess they chose that job so they could get the bragging rights.
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  #34  
Old 30 January 2014, 05:53 PM
DaGuyWitBluGlasses DaGuyWitBluGlasses is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
How did you get 1 in 28000?? You're counting per game for one and per some imagined max number per day for another.
I though went with the minimum jumps per day, for a fully active day. (I assumed that "and" rather than "or" meant both types of jumps were performed in a day.

If you don't like that assumption, then go with 3 jumps per day. 1 death every 47,000 days. Still quite a lot more than Football.

Or since the very first jump training program is half-a day. Then it's at absolute minimum 2 jumps per day. 1 in 70,000 days. Still much less than Football. And still less than the extremely maximized death rate for truckers. And still half that of a full driving day by car.

Anecdotes on yahoo, and wiki answers say a single plane will go up 5-7 times per day. (Often more than one plane at a drop zone.) And say committed skydiver can have 10-12 jumps in a day. ( With one poster claiming 24 jump in a day with filming involved.)

Other postesr say they're limited not by time, but by their physical endurance. ie, Even good landings are a large strain.

But if you want to go back to assuming one jump per day, then go
1 death per 140,000 days for skydiving. Is still much less than football when i did everything i could to make the Football statistic have as few days as possible.


Also keep in mind I used a one of the lowew fatality years on record for the original statistics. Some years were nearly double that http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/S...6/Default.aspx

1 death per 110,000 jumps average over those 13 years.
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  #35  
Old 30 January 2014, 06:11 PM
DaGuyWitBluGlasses DaGuyWitBluGlasses is offline
 
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http://www.workerinjurysandiego.com/...upations.shtml
  • Loggers, also known as lumberjacks, had the highest fatality rate of any U.S. occupation in 2012. With 62 on-the-job logging deaths last year, lumberjacks lost their lives at a rate of 127.8 per 100,000 full-time workers - about 40 times the average across all industries. Loggers face numerous on-the-job safety hazards, including falls, difficult terrain and dangerous equipment.

Lets say they only worked 198 days like the "official" rate for teachers in ontario, instead of the usual 250 work days.
That would be 1 death every 154,900 working days.

A full 250, would be 1 death every 195,600

So a single skydive, is more dangerous than a working day in the most dangerous US occupation.
--

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/emp...-business.html
  • The following jobs have been deemed to be hazardous by the federal government and therefore no minor may perform them:
  • 4. Logging and Sawmilling.

--
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  #36  
Old 30 January 2014, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Firejumpers jump out of necessity, in a job they chose.
Smokejumpering is something I wanted to do not long after high school.I was to big to ever fall under the max jump weight and learned that I rather fight fire from an engine. Not many that join for "bragging rights" ever make it through training.
Similar to when I first started my fire training that the guys who joined "because chicks dig firefighters" quickly quit or failed out.
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  #37  
Old 30 January 2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGuyWitBluGlasses View Post
So a single skydive, is more dangerous than a working day in the most dangerous US occupation.
I don't agree with your extrapolations. More importantly, I don't agree with a comparison between fatalities of one and fatalities of another and then implying that occupational hazards are comparable when, actually, one is far far more likely to result not in death but in permanent disability (none of which are included in your stats), which is likely to be the reason such jobs are off-limits to minors. Also, minors over 16 are allowed to operate chainsaws and cut down trees in most states so, again, job laws are irrelevant.
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  #38  
Old 31 January 2014, 12:33 AM
DaGuyWitBluGlasses DaGuyWitBluGlasses is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I don't agree with your extrapolations. More importantly, I don't agree with a comparison between fatalities of one and fatalities of another and then implying that occupational hazards are comparable when, actually, one is far far more likely to result not in death but in permanent disability (none of which are included in your stats), which is likely to be the reason such jobs are off-limits to minors. Also, minors over 16 are allowed to operate chainsaws and cut down trees in most states so, again, job laws are irrelevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_traffic_safety
http://www.bpa.org.uk/staysafe/how-safe/ (Skydiving, spreadsheet)

Seem to both give a ten to one ratio of serious injuries to deaths.

Logging, i'm having trouble finding statistics because it seems to be counting any injury that results in long-term inability to work as serious, despite a lack of medical urgency.


This one containing only medically serious injuries and fatalities:
http://www.orosha.org/pdf/pubs/repor...8topresent.pdf

I count 2012: 5 deaths 8-serious injuries --2011, 9:23. --2010 5:17 --2009 4:17 --2008 9:15.
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  #39  
Old 31 January 2014, 12:44 AM
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In any case, the requirements for allowing someone to work in a profession and participate in a sport are different so it's irrelevant.

For one thing, and this goes for driving as well, there is the danger to a young person participating versus danger to other people nearby. Driving kills a lot of people not even involved in any way.

Furthermore, your stats don't take out accidents that are very unlikely to happen to novice or non-specialist jumpers. A lot of injuries and deaths in skydiving are people trying to perform special manoeuvres, something novices almost never do.

Finally, your stats are way jacked up for a "minimum jumps" that no novice would ever even be able to get close. Skydivers typically jump a total of a few times a year. Even experienced jumpers rack up hundreds of jumps in their lives. A small percentage of jumpers do thousands of jumps in a lifetime of jumping. So it's very unreasonable to compare jumping every day several times a day to what a typical amateur might do.
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  #40  
Old 31 January 2014, 12:53 AM
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I don't think it would be that unusual to rack up thousands of jumps over a period of years.
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