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  #21  
Old 03 January 2007, 04:25 AM
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Spam & Cookies-mmm Spam & Cookies-mmm is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I thought part of the creationist creed was that God was never wrong and as dinosaurs (or any prehistoric animal) would be a mistake as it was extinct, then it would not have existed in the first place.
No. They never went extinct. Dinosaurs are just lizards. See, lizards never stop growing. Before the Flood, everything lived longer (e.g. Methuselah), and lizards grew very large. Post flood lizards have not managed to grow so large.

I can't believe you didn't know this.
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  #22  
Old 03 January 2007, 04:49 AM
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Mickey Blue Mickey Blue is offline
 
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I guess finding dinosaurs would be an attack on some science. If people have been seeing them and being dismissed, and evidence later found, then that would be an attack on scientific neutrality.
There are plenty of incedents in history that already have strongly attacked scientific neutrality.. Problem is there are countless more that have attacked religious neutrality.

That said sciences answer to something they don't agree with is generally "Prove it, idiot", where as religions answer is "your wrong we're right now go to hell".. This is primarily due to no amount of "proof" being valid as religion is hinged on faith.
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  #23  
Old 03 January 2007, 07:44 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Finding one species or a hundred species of dinosaur still alive wouldn't disprove evolution anyway. There are plenty of creatures still alive which predate dinosaurs (jellyfish I think, from the top of my head, are largely unchanged and predate the dinosaurs).
You don't have to go to jellyfish. Crocodiles are dinosaurs and have survived more or less unchanged since the extinction of the rest of the dinosaurs.
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  #24  
Old 03 January 2007, 12:00 PM
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Satan put those fossils there to confuse and enrage people and cast doubt on the existence of God. Duh.
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  #25  
Old 03 January 2007, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
You don't have to go to jellyfish. Crocodiles are dinosaurs and have survived more or less unchanged since the extinction of the rest of the dinosaurs.
Crocodiles are not dinosaurs. They are (were) related types of reptile both descended from so-called thecodonts, but are not the same sort of reptile.

Are crocodiles dinosaurs? - scroll down to "Unique Characteristics of Dinosaurs".

Last edited by Mosherette; 03 January 2007 at 12:15 PM. Reason: added second link
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  #26  
Old 03 January 2007, 01:11 PM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Crocodiles are not dinosaurs. They are (were) related types of reptile both descended from so-called thecodonts, but are not the same sort of reptile.
Dang that David Attenborough! He told me so just last week in a documentary! He should swim among stingrays as punishment...

Well, they are still closer to the dinos than jellyfish are.
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  #27  
Old 03 January 2007, 03:40 PM
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Shark have been around about 350 million years. Nothing like being a perfect killing machine to insure survival of the species.
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  #28  
Old 03 January 2007, 04:10 PM
Victoria J
 
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
There are plenty of incedents in history that already have strongly attacked scientific neutrality.. Problem is there are countless more that have attacked religious neutrality.

That said sciences answer to something they don't agree with is generally "Prove it, idiot", where as religions answer is "your wrong we're right now go to hell".. This is primarily due to no amount of "proof" being valid as religion is hinged on faith.
I completely agree.

Scientific neutrality is not so neutral, (well the whole idea that a bunch of people are wonderfully impartial just because they are scientists is pretty unscientific). But as a system it works pretty well over time, and is still the most reasonable and detached way of looking at the world we have. It is sort of like "2 cheers for democracy" I think.

As a worse case scenario a little bit of extra ammunition against scientific neutrality isn't bad. That was part of the point I was trying to make before.

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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
You don't have to go to jellyfish. Crocodiles are dinosaurs and have survived more or less unchanged since the extinction of the rest of the dinosaurs.
I wasn't in any way suggesting that jellyfish are similar to dinosaurs, nor did I choose them because they were the only thing around to predate the dinosaurs. They came to mind* because I have seen them used an example to show that "recently evolved" doesn't mean better, they have remained largely unchanged for a very long time because they are extremely good at (a) being jellyfish, and (b) surviving and reproducing.

Victoria J

* I did write "They came into my mind because..." but that made me think "arghhh! Jellyfish in my mind! Get them out!" so I changed it.
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  #29  
Old 03 January 2007, 04:42 PM
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Seeing dinosaurs? What utter rubbish. We all know that dinosaurs, along with unicorns, dragons, and centaurs, didn't make it onto Noah's ark and that's why they are all extinct now.
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  #30  
Old 03 January 2007, 10:12 PM
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Seeing dinosaurs? What utter rubbish. We all know that dinosaurs, along with unicorns, dragons, and centaurs, didn't make it onto Noah's ark and that's why they are all extinct now.
I once knew a woman who told me all meat eating dinosaurs (T-Rex, raptor, etc) were created by Hollywood to sell movies because if they had really existed they would have eaten everything on the ark..

I was going to ask "What about meat eating animals that we still have today like lions and stuff?" but before I could four blood vessels in my head immediatly hemmoraged due to my brain firing off in all directions trying to make sense of her idiotic statement.. I was hosptialized for nine weeks.. And they say creationism dosn't hurt anybody..
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  #31  
Old 03 January 2007, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Victoria J View Post
Finding one species or a hundred species of dinosaur still alive wouldn't disprove evolution anyway.
[...]Even if you found all species of dinosaurs alive and well that wouldn't actually disprove evolution. (And even if you could prove to me right now that some dinosaurs still existed I still would put the chances of the really big ones still being out there at 0).

Unless you could show that everything alive now was alive in the past you aren't really challenging evolution.
[...]I guess finding dinosaurs would be an attack on some science. If people have been seeing them and being dismissed, and evidence later found, then that would be an attack on scientific neutrality. And finding bigger dinosaurs might knock out theories on ecosystems etc.
We can make a pretty accurate prediction about how the scientific community would react to a credible dinosaur sighting by looking at the discovery of the first living coelacanth (a creature long believed to be extinct.) In short: at one point, Science said, "there are no more of these creatures." Then someone found one. Science said, "oops." Then it made an effort to find more, and protect them from extinction. The same would probably happen if a dinosaur were found. Why would anyone want to sit on a discovery like that? As you pointed out, the conspiracy theory doesn't hold water, largely because the discovery of a living dinosaur wouldn't disprove evolution any more than the discovery of the coelacanth did.
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  #32  
Old 03 January 2007, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
I once knew a woman who told me all meat eating dinosaurs (T-Rex, raptor, etc) were created by Hollywood to sell movies because if they had really existed they would have eaten everything on the ark..

I was going to ask "What about meat eating animals that we still have today like lions and stuff?" but before I could four blood vessels in my head immediatly hemmoraged due to my brain firing off in all directions trying to make sense of her idiotic statement.. I was hosptialized for nine weeks.. And they say creationism dosn't hurt anybody..
I once had a creationist tell me that dinosaurs were on the ark. They were baby dinosaurs who only there for 40 days and so they didn't grow big enough to threaten the other animals. I've heard similar arguments for why Noah didn't get eaten by a grizzly.
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  #33  
Old 04 January 2007, 01:00 PM
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This reminds me. I have a book that I LOVE for its utter ridiculousness that I got as a kid while I was in Catholic school, called "What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs?". It basically says that they died in the flood, blah blah blah, all kinds of stuff about Adam and Eve having personally met dinosaurs, only young dinosaurs were allowed on the ark, what have you.

I keep it around because it makes me laugh every time I dig through my old stuff I forgot I had and run across it. I can't remember if I ever actually believed that kind of stuff, but it's possible. I was terrified of hell, you see.

ETA: Oh my god, it's on video! I wonder if it's as entertaining as the horrible book.

Last edited by Missie; 04 January 2007 at 01:07 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04 January 2007, 01:07 PM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Missie View Post
This reminds me. I have a book that I LOVE for its utter ridiculousness that I got as a kid while I was in Catholic school, called "What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs?". [...]
You got it from your Catholic school? If so, that's kind of weird. The Catholic church has been okay with evolution for a long time.
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  #35  
Old 04 January 2007, 01:56 PM
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Probably the difference between what the Vatican says and what individual teachers believe. Didn't they just get rid of the concept of limbo? Which means the infallible word of the all the previous popes up to that point have been wrong?
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  #36  
Old 05 January 2007, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
You got it from your Catholic school? If so, that's kind of weird. The Catholic church has been okay with evolution for a long time.
I didn't get it FROM Catholic school. I don't know where I actually got it from, I just know I got it around the time I was in Catholic school.
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  #37  
Old 06 January 2007, 07:13 AM
spiral
 
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That cryptozoologist should come to Australia, we've still got plenty of dinosaurs, the Howardactyl, the Abbottosaurus and the elusive yet virulent Ruddockatops. He'd better hurry though, they might be on the verge of extinction
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  #38  
Old 09 January 2007, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Incidently concerning fossils does anyone remember Strata by Terry Pratchett
Ban the Bomb!

If they reject a lot of the concrete evidence in support of dinosaurs, then they have to talk really fast to support their arguments. It really irritates me.

Gofer
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  #39  
Old 09 January 2007, 09:45 PM
matches
 
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Icon202 Moekole Mumbembe (or something like that)

Is a suarian suposedly still around in the jungles of the congo.

Of course, if you really want to be specific, when one studies the differnces between the whole of Class Avian and Class Saurian there are few real items to mark as differnce. (atleast so some people say).

So perhaps there never were Saurians, just giant flightless birds. Or perhaps there still are saurians, but we mistakenly classify them as avians.

There is a movie from the 80's about the moekole mumbembe caled Baby.

The joke about the moekole mumbembe is that when anthropolgists asked the natives about the moekole mumbembe they uniformly agreed it was delicious.
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  #40  
Old 09 January 2007, 09:47 PM
gwlith y wawr
 
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Originally Posted by dantonini View Post
I once had a creationist tell me that dinosaurs were on the ark.
i now have a picture in my head of noah with a big pointy stick trying to stop the dinosaurs all standing on the same side of the ark so that it doesn't tip over and spill everyone and everything into the sea.

and also if steven spielberg couldn't keep all the dinosaurs in their cages how could noah... he didn't even have electricity or jeff goldblum

don't tell me it was just a film...
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