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  #901  
Old 21 December 2017, 04:06 AM
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Poe is someone who's talented and makes the mistake of thinking that that makes him a good leader. Though Finn comes close to being as annoying. His "lovable" coward antics were bad enough in the last movie, they shouldn't have been in this one at all (I don't care what kind of justification they used for it).

Oh, speaking of Finn did he have the slowest speeder in the squad or something? How the heck did Rose get into a position to intercept him coming down the side if he was going full-throttle into the face of the cannon?
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  #902  
Old 21 December 2017, 04:35 AM
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I understand what you are saying, ASL. In real life, your name and status does not shield you from an ignoble death. Yeah, someone could die in war by sacrificing themselves to save the rest of their unit, but they could also die because of an infected wound or from drinking bad water. All that and the rest of what you said, is true.

The thing is, fiction follows different rules. Ever read How Not to Write a Novel? They have a section in there called Why your job is more difficult than God’s? The point of it is that God can traffic in the most absurd and ridiculous of plot twists and get away with it. No one will say “This is ridiculous,” and leave in search of a more well-written reality.

The writer, on the other hand, does not have that luxury. All forms of fiction have an internal logic they have to follow. The reader has basically entered into a contract with the writer and has some expectations regarding the final product. That’s not to say that there can be no surprises, but people have different expectations for different genres and would be appalled if what they thought was a breezy rom-com makes a sudden turn and becomes a slasher film with no buildup whatsoever.

The reader knows that in a real life war, people are likely to die like cannon fodder, but while they’ll accept that for some nameless extra in the background, they expect a stronger resolution when it comes to main characters like Leia. Trying to do otherwise can make them feel like they and the character they loved, were cheated. It is probably possible to pull it off, but it requires some fantastic writing skills to do so.

Though they don’t really have to even go into the details of Leia’s death that much. Just show a funeral being held to honor her, have a eulogy or something listing her accomplishments, and have a massive turnout from both main characters, side characters, and nameless background ones a like. Make sure to drive home her greatness.

In doing so, maybe they’ll avoid a bridge-drop because a large part of what makes a character’s death is the response to it. If the characters are genuinely upset by the death and it carries over into other scenes, then it’s not a bridge-drop. If no one seems that bothered by the character’s death and there’s no acknowledgement of what has happened, then it is a bridge-drop.
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  #903  
Old 21 December 2017, 04:40 AM
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IIRC, they said right after Carrie Fisher's death that they weren't planning to kill Leia off in Episode IX. Of course, who knows if that's true.
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  #904  
Old 21 December 2017, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
The writer, on the other hand, does not have that luxury. All forms of fiction have an internal logic they have to follow. The reader has basically entered into a contract with the writer and has some expectations regarding the final product.
And some of the very best writing breaks those expectations.

I agree that it takes good writing to do so effectively. But I don't always want to read, or see, variation 349712 on formula 217.

I haven't seen this movie, or been closely following this universe. But having a central character die 'like nameless cannon fodder' would make a very good point, which might go into the backs of the heads of the audiences, and might even make a few of them think twice about the Glory of War next time they're at the polls.

I always wonder: who would we be celebrating as heroes, and/or as major contributors to our culture, our science, our healthcare: except that we never heard of them, because before they had a chance to do anything they died as nameless cannon fodder, or as civilian casualties somewhere under the bombs?

In most movies and most books, those people are at best redshirts, and much of the time don't even get names. It's only the handful of central ones we're supposed to grieve for. A writer good enough to mix up the two categories, and in the process make us think of all the others, should be praised, not snarled at for breaking some sort of contract with the reader.

I don't know enough of the Star Wars universe to have any idea whether that quality of writing's likely to occur in this case.
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  #905  
Old 21 December 2017, 07:20 PM
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E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
The thing is, fiction follows different rules. Ever read How Not to Write a Novel? They have a section in there called Why your job is more difficult than God’s? The point of it is that God can traffic in the most absurd and ridiculous of plot twists and get away with it. No one will say “This is ridiculous,” and leave in search of a more well-written reality.
There was a great collection someone did -- I can't find it at the moment -- that was evidence that reality has really poor writers. A few examples:

"Wait, so they banish Napoleon to an island, then they bring him back just so they can beat him again? Can't they come up with a new villain?"

"So the United States develops a super-weapon to end World War II, and then never uses it again in all the wars they've fought since? Come on!"

"I guess the writers got tired of the dinosaur plot line, but having a comet come out of nowhere to wipe them out feels really arbitrary..."

Etc., etc.

[/hijack]
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  #906  
Old 21 December 2017, 07:25 PM
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Getting back to The Last Jedi, one bit of trivia I read -- I don't know for certain if it's true -- is that they originally wrote the (minimal spoilage) sequence where Finn and Rose take their little side trip for Finn and Poe -- but that they realized that it wasn't working, in part because you could swap the lines of dialogue between the two characters and no one would be able to tell the difference.

It's hard to imagine saying that about any pair of characters from the original trilogy. Pick any two at random, and the dialogue would be distinctive and the interplay between the characters part of the fun. This is part of what I think is wrong with the new films (and to a large degree with the prequels). While the original trilogy characters might have been a little too broadly, they over-compensated.

(On the other hand, it meant they had to invent or greatly expand the role of Rose, and that was a good thing; I liked her.)
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  #907  
Old 21 December 2017, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I always wonder: who would we be celebrating as heroes, and/or as major contributors to our culture, our science, our healthcare: except that we never heard of them, because before they had a chance to do anything they died as nameless cannon fodder, or as civilian casualties somewhere under the bombs
He doesn't exactly fit the bill since he has a wiki page 100 years on and I learned about him from a PBS documentary series, but Henry Moseley is a "just prominent enough" example of that sort of loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
(On the other hand, it meant they had to invent or greatly expand the role of Rose, and that was a good thing; I liked her.)
She had a weirdly specific/critical origin story for some nobody in space, though. Well, it would have been critical if it hadn't been so useless.

And I really don't get her whole crashing in to save Finn bit. It paid off (sort of), but it was as stupid an idea as anything.

Last edited by ASL; 21 December 2017 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Right, spoilers...
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  #908  
Old 21 December 2017, 09:40 PM
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As I said above, it doesn't even make sense that she was able to do so in the first place.
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  #909  
Old 21 December 2017, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
He doesn't exactly fit the bill since he has a wiki page 100 years on and I learned about him from a PBS documentary series, but Henry Moseley[/URL] is a "just prominent enough" example of that sort of loss.
Yes, a very good almost-example. But still, from that link:

Quote:
Experts have speculated that Moseley could have been awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1916, had he not been killed.[1][2] As a consequence, the British government instituted new policies for eligibility for combat duty.
The people I wonder the most about are the ones who would still have been eligible under those new policies. Moseley got to accomplish some of his work. A lot of people died before they ever got a chance to start their work, work the nature of which we'll never know.

(Admittedly, a few of them probably would have done things that we're all better off for not having found out the nature of.)
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  #910  
Old 22 December 2017, 12:40 AM
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Then I should tell you about my class' valedictorian... Actually, he was lower than cannon fodder, he was a training accident. Cannon fodder at least gets a line on a plaque somewhere.
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
As I said above, it doesn't even make sense that she was able to do so in the first place.
Yep, and for all my nerdness it never even occurred to me but of course you're right. Fading, my powers of vector math are.
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  #911  
Old 22 December 2017, 01:34 AM
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ASL, ouch.

I am sorry for that loss.
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  #912  
Old 22 December 2017, 02:55 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Oh and Jusenkyo, while I am firmly in favor of and enjoy hating on The The Emoji Movie as much as the next person, you left out the awfulness of Jailbreak. I know I’m tooting my own horn and I shouldn’t do that, but good glob, is it satisfying to share a good Hate-On.
(Unmarked spoilers because you should have seen Ralph and this movie I'm discussing is insulting and a giant pile of Patrick Stewart)

You missed the part where it turned out she was a Princess Emoji. Unlike Vanellope, who had the throne usurped (and rejected the title, only being seen in her regalia later because she is technically a state official and it just won't do to be seen in a hoodie and cupcake skirt at a wedding), Jailbreak knew she was a princess all the time. She rebelled because, Mary Meh and Smiler notwithstanding, girl emojis only get to be princesses or brides. In her last scene, however, she is shown without her Jailbreak hat, implying that she's embraced her identity as a princess. There's also a joke about her having the ridiculous ability to sing for an animal helper (promptly ruined by having her summon the Twitter logo). Basically they paid lip service to feminism while putting in a pretty princess.
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  #913  
Old 22 December 2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
I didn't think TLJ was a bad movie; I thought it was very good. Just not to my tastes.

Best review (and, IMO, most accurate) I've read so far. And hey, it's a review; if you don't want spoilers, don't read it.
Sorry, couldn't open that review on my iPad (1st generation!) so I've just read it and I've got to say...

I think the view is generally correct about the nature of the "true villain" and I think that's another reason I didn't like the movie. It really was more about a conflict between stupid males and the "measured maturity" of its female characters. To the point of distraction. It seems kind of like lip service, to have strong-willed female heroes but just sort of hand-wave womankind's capacity for evil and stupidity, doesn't it?

Aside from Captain Phasma, is there even a female villain in the new trilogy? Or the original or the prequel for that matter? It's unfortunate they chose to brush Phasma aside with a little fire (though perhaps she's not dead, one can hope can't we?) because as far as the movies goes she's the closest thing to a strong female villain the franchise has had. IMHO, we need that sort of thing if we want to really portray women fairly.

My hope is that we'll see both genders experience a full range of emotions, virtues, and vices in the 3rd installment of the new trilogy rather than continue to see all that is wrong with the galaxy channeled through strong-willed male characters.
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  #914  
Old 22 December 2017, 03:54 PM
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As to Rose stopping Finn - it was shown that Finn did not know how to pilot that speeder very well, but Rose did. It seems like it would be possible that Finn was bad enough that he had too much drag on the ski and it slowed him down enough that Rose could throw caution to the wind, put on some extra speed, and pull off the maneuver.

As to strong female villains, they have not been present in the movies, but they have been in the animated series. From The Clone Wars, we had Asajj Ventress, Dooku's secret assassin and Mother Talzin and the other force witches. Ventress arguably is a more primary villain than Dooku or Sidious in those. From Rebels, one of the inquisitors is called the Seventh Sister, voiced by Sarah Michelle Geller. In the Empire, there is Governor Pryce and Minister Tua. The Freemaker Adventures has Naare as the primary villain, and the imperial commander at the station that the Freemakers live on is female.

ETA - almost forgot a few, and some are from the movies. Iden Versio is the main character in Battlefront II, which tells a canon story. I include her because the story is canon - I could make a pretty big list if we include the Old Republic games. And Zam Wessell, the shape shifting bounty hunter from Attack of the Clones. Not a big role, but bigger than Gardulla the Hutt for The Phantom Menace, or Bazine from The Force Awakens.

Last edited by Darth Credence; 22 December 2017 at 04:03 PM.
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  #915  
Old 22 December 2017, 05:37 PM
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Given that the animated series have been made by different people than the ones making the movie and aren't seen by nearly as wide an audience as the movies, I don't think the presence of strong female villains there should count for much to balance out the utter lack of such characters in the movies.

And Rose would have had to have been going more than twice as fast as Finn in order to loop around far enough to come at him from that angle. If she could go that much faster, she'd have been able to make the attack on the cannon and get to safety.
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  #916  
Old 22 December 2017, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Given that the animated series have been made by different people than the ones making the movie and aren't seen by nearly as wide an audience as the movies, I don't think the presence of strong female villains there should count for much to balance out the utter lack of such characters in the movies.

And Rose would have had to have been going more than twice as fast as Finn in order to loop around far enough to come at him from that angle. If she could go that much faster, she'd have been able to make the attack on the cannon and get to safety.
But the animated shows are more aimed at kids, so the female villains appear more to them. If you are looking to show that women fill all the roles that men do, aiming it at kids is going to get more bang for your buck. Sure, not the same as movies, but I wasn't claiming it was. Just that Star Wars in general does have some representation of female villains.

If Rose pulled up her ski, she would have eliminated drag. That may very well have let her go much, much faster than Finn while sacrificing control. If she was willing to risk crashing and burning (and she was, clearly) then it is hard to say that she couldn't go fast enough. You want more control than that during the attack, because the odds are pretty good that you won't be able to attack like that. But when you get to the point that you'll take any slim hope of pulling it off, then retract the ski, max power, and try to hang on.
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  #917  
Old 22 December 2017, 08:03 PM
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Regarding the Rose/Finn incident: Finn had already entered the beam the ram was putting off. Its probable that would have slowed him up somewhat. I'm not what that beam was though.
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  #918  
Old 23 December 2017, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu View Post
In her last scene, however, she is shown without her Jailbreak hat, implying that she's embraced her identity as a princess. There's also a joke about her having the ridiculous ability to sing for an animal helper (promptly ruined by having her summon the Twitter logo). Basically they paid lip service to feminism while putting in a pretty princess.
Yeah, every indication is that Jailbreak is the Strong Female Character ™. Unlike female characters like Furiosa or Ripley or, to use more kid-friendly ones, Hermione and any of Miyazaki's protagonists, who do demonstrate both physical and emotional strength and their actions actually have a meaningful impact on the plot, Strong Female Character™ exists so studios can say, "Hey we have a female character and she's a strong one. See this scene where she makes a bunch of Girl Power! statements."

They hope that the few Girl Power! statements and a punk-style attire, distract you from the fact that after Strong Female Character™ has a few scenes of being competent, she is shuffled to the side more and more, loses what few characteristics she had made her interesting, and basically becomes a trophy to serve as a reward for Male Main Character's growth. Because how will the audience understand that the Hero has gone through an arc and matured, if he doesn't have a love interest to go with it.

Of the bad movies released this year, The Emoji Movie may be the worst, not just because it is bad, but it is soulless, corporate bad. There's not a single spark of creativity or originality.

That kind of bad is actually more irritating than say, The Room, kind of bad. The Room fails on every level of film-making, yet it has achieved the fame it has because in spite of it, there is an aching sincerity to it. Tommy Wiseau genuinely believes he is making a good movie, despite all evidence to the contrary. This sincerity adds to the humor and gives it a life to the film that soulless corporate slop like The Emoji Movie lack.

Even though it's not likely to be true, I am totally on board with the internet theory that Tommy Wiseau is DB Cooper. It's not likely to be true, but the implications are hilarious, the idea that DB Cooper went to all this trouble with the elaborate heist and hid from the authorities for years, just so he could make the worst movie ever.
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  #919  
Old 23 December 2017, 03:28 AM
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Yeah, every indication is that Jailbreak is the Strong Female Character ™.
The way you go on to describe this trope as it relates to the emoji movie is how I felt about every female character in TLJ except Rey. If the movie had been about her, Luke, and Kylo it might have been amazing. I honestly felt like there were three or four different storylines produced by three or four different committees and only the committee dealing with the Rey/Kylo/Luke thread knew how to tell a coherent/gripping story.
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  #920  
Old 27 December 2017, 03:04 AM
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Saw Jumanji today and while I’m not likely to buy the DVD, have to admit that goddangit, it was just fun. Had me grinning from ear to ear. Seriously Jack Black is a treasure and he’s even more of a treasure when he plays someone whose body is hijacked by a teenage girl. It’s a trifle of a movie, but dangit, if it isn’t nice to have a trifle every now and then.
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