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  #21  
Old 27 August 2018, 04:03 PM
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From a story I heard on NPR last week, Ward has been campaigning on a consistent theme of "We don't want another Senator like McCain!" -- i.e., one who doesn't bow down to and obey every commandment of Chairman Trump. (Let alone one like the one she'd be replacing, Jeff Flake, who has been even more consistent and aggressive in criticizing Trump than McCain has been.) I felt this seemed to be a pretty good indicator of the state of today's GOP -- the guy they ran for President a mere decade ago is now held up by the wingnuts as a bad example.
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  #22  
Old 27 August 2018, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
From a story I heard on NPR last week, Ward has been campaigning on a consistent theme of "We don't want another Senator like McCain!" -- i.e., one who doesn't bow down to and obey every commandment of Chairman Trump.

Hah! I keep hearing that Sen. McCain specifically said that he did not want Dear Leader at his funeral. I heard this morning that VP Pence will attend. The other former presidents will be there as well--I think Bush II will deliver the eulogy.
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  #23  
Old 27 August 2018, 04:18 PM
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I heard yesterday that, even though he clashed with Obama on a lot of policies, he wanted Obama to speak at his funeral.

Although I disagreed with a ton of McCain's views, I do think he made a lot of his decisions based on what he thought was best for the country, including a number of important times that he broke with his party. That deserves respect, and I think he similarly respected others that he disagreed with who were the same way.

Chuck Schumer is proposing to rename the Senate office building where McCain's offices were, to be the McCain building. (It is currently named after a southern Democrat who worked against Lyndon Johnson on civil rights.)

Last edited by erwins; 27 August 2018 at 04:24 PM.
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  #24  
Old 27 August 2018, 05:50 PM
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I heard yesterday that, even though he clashed with Obama on a lot of policies, he wanted Obama to speak at his funeral.
I thought it was interesting that McCain chose the two guys who he ran for president against to go his eulogies (Bush W. and Obama.) I imagine that Trump will talk about how he chose not to go despite the deep wishes of McCain's family, sort of like he uninvited the Eagles from the White House after hearing a lot of them were not going to attend their meeting with him.
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  #25  
Old 27 August 2018, 07:19 PM
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Flags are flying at half staff around the country today. The flag at the White House was at half staff this morning, but apparently was raised later. It's in some ways trivial, but in some ways, it is the heart of what is wrong with Trump and his minions.
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  #26  
Old 27 August 2018, 10:13 PM
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Flags are flying at half staff around the country today. The flag at the White House was at half staff this morning, but apparently was raised later. It's in some ways trivial, but in some ways, it is the heart of what is wrong with Trump and his minions.
"Enough about that guy, let's focus back on ME."
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  #27  
Old 28 August 2018, 02:10 PM
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So about the half-staff thing:

(4 USC Sec 7, para m)
Quote:
from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress.
The President May of course extend the period, but letís not pretend like it was some outrageous breach of decorum (which people on this forum donít usually seem to care much for...) when it went to full over the WH Monday. It should have been the same everywhere.
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  #28  
Old 28 August 2018, 02:54 PM
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There's something I noticed about the obituaries and tributes that were on the television news the past few days. Every network chose to use the clip of McCain responding to the woman who couldn't trust Obama because he's "an Arab" - by which, we assume, she meant he was an Islamist terror sympathizer, non-citizen, and/or sleeper agent, etc.
While McCain's reaction is quite true to his good character and belief in cooperation, I think the decision to use this clip is indicative of just how far politics has sunk in my country. He basically told the woman that the other major party's candidate was not an Islamist terror sympathizer, non-citizen, and/or sleeper agent, but that he (McCain) would make a better President. In other words, he reacted as any decent human being should. Yet the media chose this clip to show how exceptionally upstanding and principled the man was.
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  #29  
Old 28 August 2018, 03:13 PM
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The President May of course extend the period, but letís not pretend like it was some outrageous breach of decorum (which people on this forum donít usually seem to care much for...) when it went to full over the WH Monday. It should have been the same everywhere.
No one is saying it is an outrageous breach of decorum. Both people who commented on it were doing so to point out how it is part and parcel of the demeanor and personality of President Trump.
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  #30  
Old 28 August 2018, 03:48 PM
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But it doesnít follow. When I think Trump, I think "Trump the customs, never mind what people think!"

Frankly, Iím surprised he hasnít issued a #fakenews tweet over this yet. THAT's what Iíve come to expect of Trump.
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  #31  
Old 28 August 2018, 03:59 PM
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He did trump the customs, the custom has been to leave the flag at half staff until the internment or burial.

And you are sadly mistaken. Trump is all about what people* think.

* Steve Doocy, Ainsley Earhardt, and Brian Kilmeade.
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  #32  
Old 28 August 2018, 04:11 PM
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He did trump the customs, the custom has been to leave the flag at half staff until the internment or burial.
It’s been a while since I’ve done this but... Cite please.

Because the reality as I see it is, the custom is for poeople to do whatever they want with the flag. Burn it, wear it on their underwear, fly it in tatters, do whatever. But to the extent there is any custom on how long to fly it when someone is deceased, well... what else is the flag code but a custom written down?

Just because Trump is a terrible president and human being doesn’t mean we need to twist the truth to paint him so. The truth is, it was perfectly appropriate for the flag to be flying at its peak above the WH on Monday.
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  #33  
Old 28 August 2018, 05:18 PM
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Apparently both houses of Congress made a "formal request" for the flag to be flown at half staff until the interment.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc13.c...lines/4067918/. I certainly was not saying that Trump was violating law* or custom. Also, the flag over the White House has now been lowered to half staff again, so there doesn't seem to be a strong impetus behind it of following custom or law.

I think any other president in my lifetime would have either chosen on their own to keep flags at half staff for longer out of respect and recognition for McCain, or at least would have honored Congress's request. But that would require being able to respect and appreciate a person who has opposed you and thwarted your efforts.

* The flag code seems to be largely advisory in many aspects, and the president has the power to order flags lowered for longer anyway.
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  #34  
Old 28 August 2018, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
In other words, he reacted as any decent human being should. Yet the media chose this clip to show how exceptionally upstanding and principled the man was.
That sort of describes his entire political career. McCain broke with his party only on a few issues and had a habit of saying no before voting yes on thing, but he was held up as some sort of exceptional maverick.

He had a very laudable military career, but as a politician he really wasn't that exceptional, people just believed that he was.
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  #35  
Old 28 August 2018, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Itís been a while since Iíve done this but... Cite please.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ain/2018/08/27
Quote:
In a tweet Monday morning, Matt House, a spokesman for Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.), said that he and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) had asked the Department of Defense to ďprovide necessary support so that U.S. flags on all government buildings remain at half mast through sunset on the day of Senator McCainís interment.Ē

David Popp, a spokesman for McConnell, confirmed his involvement, saying it was a standard request when a senator dies.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ff/1108717002/
Quote:
Obama signed proclamations for Kennedy, Byrd and Inouye, and those proclamations lowered flags to half-staff until the day they were buried. The Obama White House archives don't include a proclamation for Lautenberg, though according to news reports at the time, the flag did fly at half-staff at the White House for an unspecified amount of time.
Also, multiple sources are reporting that the US Capitol flag was still at half-staff when the White House one was flying at full staff.
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  #36  
Old 28 August 2018, 06:48 PM
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Ok, here's something I didn't know:

John McCainís remarkable mother: At 106, Roberta McCain has outlived her son
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  #37  
Old 28 August 2018, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
In other words, he reacted as any decent human being should. Yet the media chose this clip to show how exceptionally upstanding and principled the man was.
Chicago Tribune editorial on that moment gives it greater importance because McCain knew that it would piss off the radical right wing (nuts) that he was relying on to win the election. He brought in Palin to try to excite the far right enough to come out and vote; by saying Obama was human and American, he disappointed those potential voters.
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  #38  
Old 28 August 2018, 07:20 PM
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Some reports I've heard talk about how he started out as a solidly conservative, middle- to right-wing Republican. He did not really change, but the party shifted around him so that he wound up being seen as a moderate in at least some ways.

I did not agree with his policy positions, but you could tell that he tried to have integrity. When he compromised that, it seems he regretted it, and he has said so afterwards. (Like with picking Palin.) I think that is what was remarkable about the town hall quotes. He was not just acknowledging Obama's humanity. He went beyond that.
Quote:
“No ma’am,” McCain said. “He’s a decent family man, a citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues, and that’s what this campaign is all about.”

McCain continued to defend Obama during the event even as his supporters voiced their surprise in the background.

“He is a decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as President,” McCain said. “If I didn’t think I’d be one heck of a better President I wouldn’t be running, and that’s the point. I admire Sen. Obama and his accomplishments, I will respect him. I want everyone to be respectful, and let’s make sure we are. Because that’s the way politics should be conducted in America.”
http://time.com/4866404/john-mccain-...a-arab-cancer/

There are two things that stand out about this. One is that many politicians might have just sidestepped the woman's statement and pivoted to why voters should trust them, rather than the opponent. IOW, not encouraging the false narrative directly, but not correcting it, either. McCain didn't do that. Further, he clearly had genuine respect and admiration for Obama, but just disagreed with him. It was, and is, an era of demonizing opponents, and he instead went out of his way to affirmatively express his respect for his opponent as well as what he thought political discourse should be like.

Last edited by erwins; 28 August 2018 at 07:49 PM.
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  #39  
Old 28 August 2018, 10:41 PM
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Default John McCainís Death Brought Out the Worst in the Trump Administration

You can tell a lot about a person, and a presidential administration, by the way they handle small, symbolic things. The White Houseís handling of the American flag in the aftermath of Senator John McCainís death is providing a good test of the Trump team.

The episode has managed to combine most of the worst aspects of Donald Trumpís presidency: pettiness as a major motivating force for administration policy, a preference for sowing division over unity, disdain for tradition and norms, chaotic decision making, and an ultimate tendency to surrender.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...rocosm/568696/
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  #40  
Old 28 August 2018, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ain/2018/08/27


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ff/1108717002/


Also, multiple sources are reporting that the US Capitol flag was still at half-staff when the White House one was flying at full staff.
There are four lights.

Which is my way of saying, in not so many words, that neither of those sources, while respected (at least WaPo is) are enough to trump US Code.
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