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  #41  
Old 12 April 2018, 05:59 PM
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Yes, I'm tarring with a broad brush. But as GenYus and Darth Credence have also said, the so-called moderate and centerist conservatives have said little done even less when it comes to taking on the extremists in their party. They're far more concerned about the tone used by liberals to describe the extremists than the extremists themselves. So as far as I'm concerned they deserve the tarring.

Let's back up to the story about the conservative commentator who lost his job, posted up-thread.

Quote:
A conservative commentator who sent a violent and vulgar tweet saying he would use "a hot poker" to sexually assault a 17-year-old survivor of a Florida high school shooting has resigned from a St. Louis TV station after several advertisers withdrew from his show.
Bolded for relevance. He left after the station started losing advertisers. Not after there was an outcry from people that saying such things is unacceptable. We saw similar issues happen for all eight years of President Obama's term, with vile racist things being said about the First Family by Republican members of the government which were continually excused by other members of the party. I could go on about this.

Until the "moderate" Republicans start actually rising up and pushing back against this sort of behavior, then at best I'd say it doesn't bother them enough to do anything at best and at worst it's silent approval.
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  #42  
Old 12 April 2018, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Yes, I'm tarring with a broad brush. But as GenYus and Darth Credence have also said, the so-called moderate and centerist conservatives have said little done even less when it comes to taking on the extremists in their party. They're far more concerned about the tone used by liberals to describe the extremists than the extremists themselves. So as far as I'm concerned they deserve the tarring.
.
I remain with you on this matter. This “Not All Rightwing People!” argument is a rather specious derail. Like Crocoduck said, maybe there are Moderate and Centrist Republicans who are genuinely horrified by Trump and what their party has become. But unless they act on these feelings and actually do something, their feelings don’t really mean a lot. Saying “I feel really bad about a problem” does not solve a problem; you have to actually do something. Even if you can’t do a lot, a small act of courage is better than no act of courage at all.

Given that so far the only Republicans of any influence who have denounced Trump, are ones who waited until they no longer had to worry about reelection, it doesn’t speak well of them.

They are basically making a tacit admission that they are only speaking out, because they are no longer in danger of losing their political career. In choosing to value their careers over the people and democratic principles they are supposed to represent, they are spineless cowards; there’s no way around this.

Keeping quiet while a massive injustice is raging is, in itself, giving tacit approval to the massive injustice. The hottest corners of Hell are reserved for those, who in a moment of crisis, maintain their neutrality. Speaking out, loudly denouncing all the extremists in their party, may not accomplish a lot and may cost them their career, but at least, they would be making a stand, which proves they have some principles.

The Right has spent years making the Southern Strategy the cornerstone of their platform, culminating in them having a human dumpster fire with constant racist diarrhea of the mouth, representing their party and their country. Even if they don’t agree with the racist, fascist BS, well, I have a rule about things: even if you’re claiming more noble, more enlightened reasons for charging with a raging, stinking mob full of assholes, you’re still charging with a raging, stinking mob full of assholes.

Conversions are always nice and if they’re genuine, we should welcome them. Right now, though, it’s more important to stop these assholes from running roughshod over the rights and lives of others. Conversions should be a priority, but a lesser one.
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  #43  
Old 12 April 2018, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Given that so far the only Republicans of any influence who have denounced Trump, are ones who waited until they no longer had to worry about reelection, it doesn’t speak well of them.

They are basically making a tacit admission that they are only speaking out, because they are no longer in danger of losing their political career.
This also speaks volumes about the party they represent.
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  #44  
Old 12 April 2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Yes, I'm tarring with a broad brush. But as GenYus and Darth Credence have also said, the so-called moderate and centerist conservatives have said little done even less when it comes to taking on the extremists in their party.
I don't agree.

There are many in the GOP that are standing up for their conscience. You've got sitting Senators and Representatives that are quite vocal about their opposition to the lunacy (Graham, Flake, Cotton, McCain jump to mind). There are many conservative news sources other than Fox news who decry the lack of stability and reason within this administration (The Hill, Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic are a few).

The problem is that people don't seek out those who are speaking reason. They seek out the sensational, the hyperbolic, the unreasonable. Why do you think the "left" always reference Fox News? It's an easy target. Just like the Right target Huffington Post and Occupy Democrats. They are soft targets and easy to make your point when deconstructing their position.

The other problem is twofold. One, money has bought both sides, and with money comes distrust and agendas. Two, much of the support for establishment GOP went by the wayside when the Tea Party upended conservative dialogue in the US. Tea Party was all about money, and so they bought their message.

The broad brush painting of both sides is damaging. I'm not an American, but I can see the moderate Republicans pushing back (to help, I follow David Frum on Twitter and have read his book). By claiming that moderate Republicans are doing nothing you are sounding exactly like those that cry that moderate Muslims are doing nothing to stop terrorism.
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  #45  
Old 12 April 2018, 09:15 PM
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Graham can't decide where he sits with regards to Trump.

Flake and McCain aren't running for reelection, which was Mouse's point about not standing up against Trump until they didn't have to worry about getting reelected.

Do you mean Tom Cotton? Because I'd hardly call him someone vocalizing their opposition to the lunacy.
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  #46  
Old 13 April 2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
There is no level of proper behavior by the left that will persuade the more extreme elements of the right-wing to be better people and cooperate.
Of course not.

What I'm objecting to is lumping in everybody on the right with those elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
ETA: While it is valid to point out when someone demonizes an entire group, I think it can also be a trigger because of the prevalence of tone policing by many pundits and news organizations that slant to the right. I don't think anyone here was doing that, but it may feel like that to other members.
That may well be part of the problem.

And it may not help to point out that I'm not objecting to the language being used, only to the extreme breadth of the people it's being applied to.

We recently had a thread about anti-semitism in Poland, in which an objection was raised because not all Poles are anti-Semitic or were so during WWII, even though nobody in the thread had said that they were, and some had specifically acknowledged otherwise. Nobody called that tone policing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Yes, I'm tarring with a broad brush. But as GenYus and Darth Credence have also said, the so-called moderate and centerist conservatives have said little done even less when it comes to taking on the extremists in their party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
This “Not All Rightwing People!” argument is a rather specious derail. Like Crocoduck said, maybe there are Moderate and Centrist Republicans who are genuinely horrified by Trump and what their party has become. But unless they act on these feelings and actually do something, their feelings don’t really mean a lot. Saying “I feel really bad about a problem” does not solve a problem; you have to actually do something. Even if you can’t do a lot, a small act of courage is better than no act of courage at all.
If you're talking specifically about Republicans in office and well-known political commentators, then say that.

I have no idea what anyone here is doing besides posting on this message board. And none of us has any idea what any specific Republican and/or conservative who is not famous is doing, either. Some of them may well be working their butts off to try to swing the party around. And there are probably lots of "small act[s] of courage" that none of us will ever hear about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Conversions are always nice and if they’re genuine, we should welcome them. Right now, though, it’s more important to stop these assholes from running roughshod over the rights and lives of others. Conversions should be a priority, but a lesser one.
And we'll have a whole lot better chance of stopping those assholes if we do get some conversions.

-- We're not just talking to each other here, you know. People come to snopes, to the site as a whole, in order to try to figure out what the facts are; and increasingly to try to figure out what the facts are in political matters. Some of them are going to come across the boards. Anyone can read the boards; it's not necessary to log in, let alone to comment.

So who do you think came here in the last couple of days and went away convinced that the site as a whole is massively biased against them?
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  #47  
Old 13 April 2018, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
We recently had a thread about anti-semitism in Poland, in which an objection was raised because not all Poles are anti-Semitic or were so during WWII, even though nobody in the thread had said that they were, and some had specifically acknowledged otherwise. Nobody called that tone policing.
I did.
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  #48  
Old 13 April 2018, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
And we'll have a whole lot better chance of stopping those assholes if we do get some conversions.

-- We're not just talking to each other here, you know. People come to snopes, to the site as a whole, in order to try to figure out what the facts are; and increasingly to try to figure out what the facts are in political matters. Some of them are going to come across the boards. Anyone can read the boards; it's not necessary to log in, let alone to comment.

So who do you think came here in the last couple of days and went away convinced that the site as a whole is massively biased against them?
I refer the right honorable member to the (paraphrased) answer I gave some moments ago: "And people decide they'd rather support (or at least not oppose) the extreme elements of the right-wing party because the of the tone of the left, well, that says something about them as well."
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  #49  
Old 13 April 2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by UEL View Post
I don't agree.

There are many in the GOP that are standing up for their conscience.
This makes me wonder, have any USians seen ads from republicans running in the upcoming election that say they oppose the Turnip? In Indiana, most republican candidates are bending over backwards to kiss the Turnip's behind in their ads. (That is not a pleasant mental image.)

Here's one;
Quote:
“I'm Todd Rokita… I'm pro-life, pro-gun, and Pro-Trump. It is time to build the wall, make English our official language, and put America first!”
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  #50  
Old 13 April 2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
This makes me wonder, have any USians seen ads from republicans running in the upcoming election that say they oppose the Turnip? In Indiana, most republican candidates are bending over backwards to kiss the Turnip's behind in their ads. (That is not a pleasant mental image.)

Here's one;
*thinky face emoji*

English is not your official language?
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  #51  
Old 13 April 2018, 07:13 PM
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The U.S. does not have an official language.
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  #52  
Old 13 April 2018, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
This makes me wonder, have any USians seen ads from republicans running in the upcoming election that say they oppose the Turnip? In Indiana, most republican candidates are bending over backwards to kiss the Turnip's behind in their ads. (That is not a pleasant mental image.)

Here's one;
I've been seeing a lot of those from Indiana. The amount of ignorance and nastiness combined in those ads is truly frightening.
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  #53  
Old 14 April 2018, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
I refer the right honorable member to the (paraphrased) answer I gave some moments ago: "And people decide they'd rather support (or at least not oppose) the extreme elements of the right-wing party because the of the tone of the left, well, that says something about them as well."
I'm with you. I really, really doubt that anyone has ever said, "Well, I was going to believe in the value of all people regardless of race, gender, orientation, or religious beliefs, but you hurt my feelings, so I'm going to support your polar opposite out of spite."

Don't get me wrong: I do believe in the existence of the Spite Brigade. Heck, sometimes I'm a member of it. But there's a difference between liking a fictional character you feel is unfairly picked on by other fans, just to spite the jerk fans*, and deciding to support guys panting with desire for a genocide, because the other side hurt your feelings.

In any case, for those making the "Calling them Nazis made them become Nazis!" argument, I feel a need to point out that they have been calling feminists Nazis for decades and we're not chanting "Blood and soil!" or unfurling banners with Swastikas on them.

In any case, if it is true, it only further reiterates a rule that I have: for all their wargle-bargle and whinging about political correctness and SJWs, all the talk about how they tell it like it is and they don't care what people think of them, the Right will invariably turn out to be the thinnest-skinned mothereffers around when faced with criticism.

The "Not all Rightwing People!" derail feels suspiciously similar to the #NotAllMen derail cooked up in response the #YesAllWomen meme and really, the response to both derails is about the same: if the shoe doesn't fit, than why are you feel a need to lash out? If you've been nothing but a gentleman towards all the women in your life, you wouldn't feel a need to be all defensive about it. You may be saddened, hearing all the stories, but still.

In any case because I like using pictures to make a more concise statement, here's one for you. I used to debate when the GOP lost their goddanged minds and basically became a doomsday cult, willing to burn everything down so long as the other side doesn't "win," and have to say, making the Southern Strategy a pillar of their platform was probably it. The GOP crossed the line and now you have Trump who is the culmination of decades of crazy, the embodiment of every asinine, horrible idea circulating on the Right.

*For the record, usually when I start supporting a character out of spite, I do come to genuinely like them. Even if I don't, I understand them a bit better.
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  #54  
Old 14 April 2018, 04:36 AM
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Trump currently has an 85% approval rating among Republicans. Not many candidates in Republican primaries are going to run on an anti-Trump platform, and if they do, they'll likely lose. They may have to distance themselves in the general, but you won't see it until then.
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  #55  
Old 14 April 2018, 02:05 PM
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Trump's 85% approval rating among Republicans says something, too. Those polled have nothing to lose by saying something like, "I voted for him in hopes he'd save the economy and all the horrible things he said during his campaign were just pandering to his base, but now that I look at what he's said and done while in office, I'm disgusted." What does it mean to you that they mostly aren't saying that?
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  #56  
Old 14 April 2018, 04:01 PM
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Cognitive dissonance can be a powerful force. I would bet a number of those are just (consciously or subconciously) refusing to admit they were wrong. Of course a number have their head so far up their echo chamber that they truly think is doing a good job. Some figure that, since everyone in politics and the news is corrupt or evil, anything that upsets them must be good.
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  #57  
Old 14 April 2018, 06:32 PM
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Perhaps. Or perhaps they actually do approve of the things he's saying and doing, including the racist, sexist, xenophobic, transphobic, and otherwise bigoted things. We should all apply the same skepticism to ideas that paint our opponents as inferior as we do to those ideas less flattering to ourselves, and civility demands we give our opponents the benefit of reasonable doubts. But going through the mental gymnastics required to believe that a significant number of Trump voters who still hold him in high regard do not actually hold those bigoted beliefs does not strike me as logical or useful.
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  #58  
Old 17 April 2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
This makes me wonder, have any USians seen ads from republicans running in the upcoming election that say they oppose the Turnip? In Indiana, most republican candidates are bending over backwards to kiss the Turnip's behind in their ads. (That is not a pleasant mental image.)

Here's one;
Quote:
“I'm Todd Rokita… I'm pro-life, pro-gun, and Pro-Trump. It is time to build the wall, make English our official language, and put America first!”
Not a huge surprise. First of all, Indiana was one of the hotbeds of the KKK in the early 20th century. Second, Trump's VP, Pence, was one of the most popular governors in Indiana history.

Actually, you see the flip side of that attack in Illinois - EVERY Democrat in a contested race is trying to paint their Republican opponent as a Trump supporter.
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  #59  
Old 17 April 2018, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post

Actually, you see the flip side of that attack in Illinois - EVERY Democrat in a contested race is trying to paint their Republican opponent as a Trump supporter.

I'm fully expecting all of the Democratic candidates for governor (in this state) to the same thing with the incumbent governor.
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