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  #21  
Old 30 January 2018, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Once upon a time when I was nowhere near the age I am now I can remember reading a book where a character was described as middle aged and thinking "Pfft, since when is 60 middle aged?" Well I'll tell you - since I got closer and closer to 60 that's when! Anyway we need to come up with a better way to describe people in their 60s. If not middle aged or elderly, than what? Golden years kind of sucks IMO. Someone needs to work on this .
Hexagenian?
Hexagerian?
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  #22  
Old 30 January 2018, 11:30 PM
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I agree, Sue. My parents are in their late sixties and in better shape than I am at 34. They work full-time and have active hobbies that would be beyond the physical abilities of most people in any age group, and show no signs of cognitive decline or even being out of touch. (My dad still helps me with tech stuff on occasion, and my mom once taught me about a setting on Facebook.) There should be a designation for those past the usual middle age range but not yet what any reasonable person would describe as elderly.
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  #23  
Old 31 January 2018, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
If the average lifespan is 80 years, and one considers the middle 50% of ones life middle aged; it would run from 20 to 60.
That would seem to make more sense to me if you said the life expectancy rather than the average lifespan. Anyway, as pointed out, the "middle" isn't that kind of middle but the "between" kind. Most definitions have moved it up to between 45 to 65.

One definition of "old age" would be when someone lives more than the expected lifespan. So a woman over the age of 81 in the US would be in old age and the "between" could reasonably be 50 to 80. What I'm trying to say is I'm not 50 yet.
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  #24  
Old 31 January 2018, 01:01 AM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
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One aspect of the story seems to have been somewhat overlooked.



Just two weeks ago on Jan. 14, Hartman slipped past security at O’Hare without a boarding pass or passport and boarded a flight to the United Kingdom, according to a statement from Chicago police at the time.

Managed to slip past security without someone noticing she did not have a boarding pass?

Managed to get on the aircraft without a boarding pass?

Possibly TSA failed when she apparently can get into the secure areas without inspection and the airline doesn't seem to be able to do better screening for someone who does not have a boarding pass.

Sure does seem to show major lapses in security awareness at the several airports she has visited.
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  #25  
Old 31 January 2018, 01:21 PM
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There's more information about that in the story I posted (which was inspired by that incident, and written before the incident in the OP story):

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ealth-homeless

Quote:
On that note, for those worrying about what a 66-year-old woman’s ability to elude the system says about our terror readiness, Price has one word for you: don’t.

Hartman managed to make a lot of people look foolish and took a $2,400 flight for free. But that’s not a security issue. That’s a business issue. Hartman is not Jackie Chan. She is not going to take down a flight with her bare hands. And while she managed to get past security without a boarding pass or passport, she was screened for weapons – and, presumably, nail files and tubes of ointment – like everyone else.
She did go through security. She just managed to get into the line for it without a boarding pass, which might be as easy as walking round a barrier. Nobody in security checks passports or boarding passes.

The last few times I've flown, I've realised that (now that everybody checks in on-line) you often don't even have to show your passport until you get to the gate. On the way out, it's up to the airlines to check passports - they want to make sure as far as possible that the people on the plane are going to be allowed in the country and aren't just going to have to be flown straight back. They can't do that in person at check-in any more.
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  #26  
Old 31 January 2018, 01:39 PM
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... By the time I've finished writing my eta I might as well make it a separate post, especially as it's so long:

I've only been through security for outward flights at US airports a couple of times. Once was in Hawaii (Honolulu), before September 11th, and I remember seeing a tramp going through the bins on the secure side of the barriers, which I found quite shocking at the time.

The other was at JFK in October 2016, at Terminal 8 I think (certainly a new terminal). That terminal had one of the worst queueing systems at security for a major airport that I've ever seen.

Everybody was funnelled through a constricted point just before the lines opened out again slightly for the actual screening. You could arrive at the choke point from several directions and quite a wide area, but were all pushed into a disorganised mass in the middle.

There was no room for staff to get through to distribute trays to put things in, so it was hard to prepare to go through the limited number of security lanes - staff were dumping trolleys full of trays somewhere near the front, and passengers were literally having to pass them over people's heads to get them back to somewhere near a table where you could start to prepare, while in the middle of a crush with no effective crowd control. There were no agents controlling the lanes people go to, which is usual in other places - but there would have been nowhere for them to stand anyway.

When you actually got into a lane and managed to get your things in your tray and your tray on the belt, there were two parallel conveyors on either side of the aisle - normal enough so far. Then one side had a standard metal detector gate, but the other had one of those newer x-ray style scanners. In most airports I've seen with both types of scanner, the metal detector is in the middle, and the other scanner is used as a secondary check for people who set off the detector (as an alternative to a pat-down).

They were only using the metal detector so the situation was asymmetric - one conveyor belt led to the detector and one to the other scanner. But it wasn't obvious when you got there that this was the case, so people were trying to line up at both of them (depending on the belt they were on) and getting confused.

There were agents at this point, in their area behind the belts. One lot of agents were shouting at people to "stay next to your tray!" and the other lot were shouting at people to "line up at the metal detector! Not there, here!". But since the metal detector was next to only one of the belts, for half the passengers, whose luggage was on the other belt, it was impossible to do both.

I have no idea whether it was always that chaotic or whether this pinch-point was a temporary arrangement, but as I said, it was about the worst-organised airport security I've seen. And the fact that trained security agents were shouting contradictory instructions at people who were trying to obey them, and then getting irritated at the confusion made me a great deal more suspicious of the way police behave in these shooting cases we occasionally hear about, for example.
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  #27  
Old 31 January 2018, 01:49 PM
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From my experience for international flights, you've got to show your boarding pass and passport twice before getting on the plane: once before you can cue for the security check, and once at the gate before going to the plane.

In both cases, one or two employees are checking lots of boarding passes in short time, and it can get quite crowded. Both are situations where I can easily imagine an inconspicious eldery lady slipping through because the airport or airline employee assumes she is part of a group that was just checked through.

As the Guardian article notes, both those checks - especially the second one at the gate -are checks for business reasons rather then for security reasons.
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  #28  
Old 31 January 2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
From my experience for international flights, you've got to show your boarding pass and passport twice before getting on the plane: once before you can cue for the security check, and once at the gate before going to the plane.
At UK airports they often don't bother with the first one any more - you only need a boarding pass at that point. On my last couple of flights out, the first time I've shown my passport is at the gate when boarding...
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  #29  
Old 31 January 2018, 02:17 PM
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In the US you typically need ID and a boarding document to go through security.
For domestic flights, you don't need ID again at the gate -- just the boarding pass.

Pre-Sept. 11, you did not need either. I used to go to the gate when I went to pick people up. You just went through the metal detector and luggage through the scanner.

And that NY experience does not sound typical to me. I happen to mostly travel through really great airports, but even the worse ones are not like that.

Last edited by erwins; 31 January 2018 at 02:28 PM.
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  #30  
Old 31 January 2018, 02:25 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post



She did go through security. She just managed to get into the line for it without a boarding pass, which might be as easy as walking round a barrier. Nobody in security checks passports or boarding passes.
My experience is far different. Photo ID and boarding pass to get into the security screening area.

In some airports, I'd say all outside the United States, there was another ID and security screening to get into the boarding gate area.

Amending - one set of gates at Boston Logan had a second security to check This would have been 10 years or more ago and had something to do with the layout of the buildings, that apparently, there was an unsecure area between the main terminal building and this particular building.

Why this stands out, was that there were no bathroom facilities in this terminal area and to use a bathroom, a traveler (me) had to leave the secure area, take care of business and then be screened again. Maybe someone familiar with the airport can share if this has been changed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
The last few times I've flown, I've realised that (now that everybody checks in on-line) you often don't even have to show your passport until you get to the gate. On the way out, it's up to the airlines to check passports - they want to make sure as far as possible that the people on the plane are going to be allowed in the country and aren't just going to have to be flown straight back. They can't do that in person at check-in any more.
More and more, airlines are asking, for international travel, for passport information prior to boarding pass issue.

I guess I travel somewhat differently, for the only photo ID I've used for airline travel, for many years, to include domestic US, has been my passport.

For most of us who do international travel, we have checked luggage and that requires checking in, if for nothing else but get tags for the luggage, and at this point, the airlines at US airports are indeed checking passports at the check-in counter.

Last edited by UrbanLegends101; 31 January 2018 at 02:33 PM. Reason: adding.
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  #31  
Old 31 January 2018, 02:27 PM
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The couple of times I flew through JFK I hated it, but it wasn't like Richard described. It was just awkward and crowded, plus I had to lug a bunch of stuff with me to/on the AirTrain.
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  #32  
Old 31 January 2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanLegends101 View Post
More and more, airlines are asking, for international travel, for passport information prior to boarding pass issue.
You give passport information to get the ticket and boarding pass even when you use on-line check-in, but the last couple of times I've flown, nobody physically checks that you've got the passport until you get to the gate. And quite a few of the last check-ins I've done have been as part of a group, so somebody else has filled in the passport details for everybody. I could have got to the gate without physically having a passport with me, or (pushing it) without being the person named on the ticket.

Most people in Europe now seem to fly with hand luggage only, so there's no need to go to the check-in even to drop off luggage. That's presumably why the airlines have started checking passports at the gate, rather than at check-in as in the past, because it's the first time that they know everybody is going to be there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The couple of times I flew through JFK I hated it, but it wasn't like Richard described. It was just awkward and crowded, plus I had to lug a bunch of stuff with me to/on the AirTrain.
Was it the same terminal (8)?
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  #33  
Old 31 January 2018, 03:18 PM
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Years ago, I saw what definitely looked like someone sneaking through security in the US. A family of 7 or so were going through security, the Dad had all the boarding passes at the TSA and he showed all of them at once to the TSA agent. Agent took a look at the top one and gave them back.

Then all of his family started their way through the screening. The woman in front of me was not part of the family, but she just joined their little de-metalling with the family and made it through screening without showing a boarding pass.

I'm certain that if it came down to it, getting on the flight could be done the same way. Mass of boarding passes and IDs held by Dad, and the woman saying, "I'm with them and you looked at my ID already" and getting on the plane. If the plane is not full, there is a chance they could get on the flight.

But today, I know (in Canada) the flight attendants count the passengers, and it must match the numbers that were processed by the gate agent (all boarding passes are scanned now). So, an extra person would raise a flag. I am not sure how it is done in the US, as the last time I flew in the US (and not as a transit through) they ripped my boarding pass and kept part of it.
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  #34  
Old 31 January 2018, 03:30 PM
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Ha, that reminds me of the land border between Syria and Turkey... It took me far longer than it should have done to get through because I'm British and too polite for the "push to the front" system of queueing, but that wasn't the funny part.

Everybody was in a disorganised scrum around the booth. Half the people crossing were women in headscarves, with greater or lesser degrees of veiling. There were men pushing to the front, collecting passports from six or ten women at once, and giving them all in a bunch to the guy in the booth. I couldn't see any way that he would have been able to keep track of whose was which, or make sure that everybody had shown one.

(I eventually ended up being taken by the bus driver to a different, completely deserted window round the corner, where I had to pay $20 USD - if I'd believed the driver previously I could have gone there straight away, but I'm still not sure whether that was an "official" charge or not. I'd already checked that there weren't supposed to be any visa or authorisation requirements beyond the ones I had.)
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  #35  
Old 31 January 2018, 03:56 PM
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Was it the same terminal (8)?
Good question, I don't remember.
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  #36  
Old 31 January 2018, 05:33 PM
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It might well usually be different anyway. The way it was when I was there certainly didn't seem like a sustainable long-term plan.
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  #37  
Old 31 January 2018, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The couple of times I flew through JFK I hated it, but it wasn't like Richard described. It was just awkward and crowded, plus I had to lug a bunch of stuff with me to/on the AirTrain.
As Richard already mentioned, since JFK has so many terminals it can be a completely different experience depending on which one you're in. My only experiences at JFK have been in Terminal 5 (primarily JetBlue's terminal) which IIRC is the newest one there and has an incredibly large and efficient security checkpoint. IIRC they bragged about it having the most security lanes of any airport terminal in the US when it opened. On the other hand the now demolished Terminal 3 (Delta) opened circa 1960 as the Pan Am Worldport and was from a time when airports didn't even have security checkpoints at all. When they had to add them later on it made for a really awkward arrangement. It was such a horrible terminal in later years it gained the nickname the "Third World Port".
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  #38  
Old 31 January 2018, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
You give passport information to get the ticket and boarding pass even when you use on-line check-in, but the last couple of times I've flown, nobody physically checks that you've got the passport until you get to the gate. And quite a few of the last check-ins I've done have been as part of a group, so somebody else has filled in the passport details for everybody. I could have got to the gate without physically having a passport with me, or (pushing it) without being the person named on the ticket.
My last international flight started in August, 2016, and no doubt Delta used it to verify I could get to where I was going. Perhaps from habit, I've always presented the passport at check-in.

My wife started an international flight on United out of Orlando, in early 2017, and again, passport presented at check-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Most people in Europe now seem to fly with hand luggage only, so there's no need to go to the check-in even to drop off luggage. That's presumably why the airlines have started checking passports at the gate, rather than at check-in as in the past, because it's the first time that they know everybody is going to be there.

I wonder if this is a bit of a European thing, especially for flights within the EU?

Thinking about that 2016 international travel, my last international leg coming back to the United States was Amsterdam to Atlanta and I did some kind of pre-check in the airport with Delta, I guess to meet some TSA standards, and passport was part of the ID process.

Seems we are seeing fairly divergent procedures.
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  #39  
Old 31 January 2018, 06:25 PM
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It might well usually be different anyway. The way it was when I was there certainly didn't seem like a sustainable long-term plan.
It's JFK, they'll find another way to make you miserable.
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  #40  
Old 31 January 2018, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
There's more information about that in the story I posted (which was inspired by that incident, and written before the incident in the OP story):

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ealth-homeless
The last few times I've flown, I've realised that (now that everybody checks in on-line) you often don't even have to show your passport until you get to the gate. On the way out, it's up to the airlines to check passports - they want to make sure as far as possible that the people on the plane are going to be allowed in the country and aren't just going to have to be flown straight back. They can't do that in person at check-in any more.
This seems very odd. How does an airline confirm that you have a valid passport and visas if required, without confirming that at the check-in desk. If the answer is "at the gate", then the gate effectively becomes the check-in desk. At what point do you check your baggage in.
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