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  #21  
Old 03 June 2014, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Putting them in prison makes their next victim less stabbed, which trying them as children doesn't accomplish.
Does it, though? What is the rate of recidivism in 12 year old attempted murderers?

You know what would also save the next victim? Shooting them through the head immediately without trial. Should we do that? No.

Quote:
But you care more about the murderers rights.
It's not as black and white as that. You can protect the rights of the accused while still caring about the victim or potential next victim. We're all called upon to make that balance.
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  #22  
Old 03 June 2014, 06:30 PM
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Which assumes that there is a next victim, that putting them in adult prison won't turn them into worse criminals, and that prison has some anti-recidivism properties that juvenile detention doesn't.

ETA: I'm pretty sure Sue Bee and Chloe are not juveniles, can I try them as adults for aggravated spanking?
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  #23  
Old 03 June 2014, 06:35 PM
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If they're found not guilty, the distinction will be irrelevant. If they're tried as children, then even when found guilty they will get a slap on the wrist.
Do you have a cite for this?
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  #24  
Old 03 June 2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
But you care more about the murderers rights.
Attempted murderers.
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  #25  
Old 03 June 2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
These two girls are too young to face justice, but their victim wasn't too young to get stabbed 19 times? You're preoccupied with looking out for the rights of entirely the wrong people. Trying them as children means we have a couple of unrepentant, premeditated, murdering psychopaths walking free after 6 years of state boarding school. They shouldn't get another crack at murder so soon after the first one. The juvenile detention system is not adequate for the severity of what they did.
Agreed, but 60 years in prison (potentially at least) is not the answer either when a 12 year old murders. I have no idea what the solution is but I do know it's not what we have in Canada where juvenile records are sealed, teens get 5 years even for premeditated murder and then are free to go out and prey on others again. 3 little thugs murdered an elderly couple in my neighbourhood a number of years ago and that's exactly what they all got. 5 years. At least two of them have been in and out of adult prisons ever since.

Last edited by Sue; 03 June 2014 at 07:53 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #26  
Old 03 June 2014, 07:46 PM
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According to this site, the maximum penalty for a juvenile in Wisconsin for class A felonies is juvenile life without possibility of parole.

Other states have other provisions. Here, a person found responsible as a juvenile can be held until they are 25, not just 18. But one of the points of the juvenile system is that a person who is 12 still has a lot of growing to do, including brain development. Huge changes happen in the 10 years between 12 and 22. Locking someone up for the rest of their lives based on something they did at the age of 12 doesn't make sense, and is wasteful of resources and a person's life.
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  #27  
Old 03 June 2014, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
....But one of the points of the juvenile system is that a person who is 12 still has a lot of growing to do, including brain development. Huge changes happen in the 10 years between 12 and 22. Locking someone up for the rest of their lives based on something they did at the age of 12 doesn't make sense, and is wasteful of resources and a person's life.
Agreed. Though I think the juvenile system should be radically change to work towards truly reforming young criminals rather than hardening them, making them more likely to return to jail as an adult.

Sadly, we have a throw away society when it comes to young people who don't fit societies molds. The juvenile system is just the final stop before we can feel good about throwing them away.
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  #28  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
If they're found not guilty, the distinction will be irrelevant. If they're tried as children, then even when found guilty they will get a slap on the wrist.
For a premeditated killing, a juvenile will almost certainly be committed to the juvenile prison (by whatever name, that is what it is) until reaching majority. Staying in juvie detention is not 'a slap on the wrist'. Of course, if they get routed to mental health care as an alternative, it might be very different.
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  #29  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
Sadly, we have a throw away society when it comes to young people who don't fit societies molds. The juvenile system is just the final stop before we can feel good about throwing them away.
Yes, the truly sad part of a little girl being stabbed 19 times is the consequences it may have for the stabbers.
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  #30  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:12 PM
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That's pretty unsympathetic to the victim.
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  #31  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Yes, the truly sad part of a little girl being stabbed 19 times is the consequences it may have for the stabbers.
It is interesting when we have stories here about children being bullied we don't seem to have any one wringing their hands over the fate of the bullies.
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  #32  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:27 PM
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I'll be that guy. We had a thread about someone who was bullied in elementary school and proud to say the bullies ended up in jail as adults. As a member of society I found this horrifying. I just think that when we are dealing with children we should make some attempt to 'fix' them. This is in no way takes away from the sympathy we have for the victims.

Just to be clear, it is sad and horrifying that this girl was stabbed and she deserves all the sympathy and help we have to offer.
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  #33  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
That's pretty unsympathetic to the victim.
You think?
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  #34  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
You think?
Yes. I know your point is to imply that if someone thinks the 12 year olds should not be tried as adults, they have no sympathy for the victim, but no one has said so, or even hinted at it. You made that up all on your own.
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  #35  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
It is interesting when we have stories here about children being bullied we don't seem to have any one wringing their hands over the fate of the bullies.
Are bullies frequently tried in court as adults?
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  #36  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
Just to be clear, it is sad and horrifying that this girl was stabbed and she deserves all the sympathy and help we have to offer.
There was a metro Atlanta incident this weekend where the aunt of the perpetrator hit just the right tone - an off-duty cop was trying to arrest a woman and he was shot dead by her boyfriend, and then the cop's brother shot and critically wounded the boyfriend. Here's the story The aunt of the boyfriend was interviewed and she first stated how saddened she is over the death of the officer, and then how she did not know what could have happened for her nephew to do such a rotten thing, but that she could not just turn off her feelings for her nephew, and that she still loved him and wanted his full recovery. You can feel pain for the victim and still want what is best for the perpetrator without being contradictory or minimizing the offense.
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  #37  
Old 03 June 2014, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
Are bullies frequently tried in court as adults?
I am sure it depends on the form the bullying takes, and how old the bullies are when they do stuff.
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  #38  
Old 03 June 2014, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
Are bullies frequently tried in court as adults?
Don't misunderstand me I don't agree with trying 12 yr olds as adults. However my sympathies here are with the victim and her family, not the alleged killers.
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  #39  
Old 03 June 2014, 10:15 PM
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Can you only have sympathy for one person at a time? Is there only so much sympathy to go around so that you must take from one person to have it for another?
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  #40  
Old 03 June 2014, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
Can you only have sympathy for one person at a time? Is there only so much sympathy to go around so that you must take from one person to have it for another?
If the person you have sympathy for is the perpetrator who intentionally caused the victim to require sympathy, then yes fawning over the perpetrator does detract from the seriousness of what the victim is going through.
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