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  #181  
Old 02 March 2018, 01:19 PM
dfresh dfresh is offline
 
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I think that just whoever he talked to last said "people are upset, talk about gun control for a bit", and then he will talk to someone from high up in the Republican party who will calm him down. Or, he just wants to distract people. Either way, I am not too confident in anything being done.
On NPR this morning, I heard that Trump met with the NRA's chief lobby dude yesterday, who reported that Trump opposes any gun control. So yeah, that didn't last long.
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  #182  
Old 02 March 2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
This is, again, a problem with terminology. I don't think Trump is using it correctly, but (and no offense is intended here) neither are you. I would have to reword what you said, or just go with your explanation of what you meant by it. Trump was talking about "the system" where you take the guns first and "go through due process second." That sounds to me like he has heard of gun restraining orders or similar proposals where someone such as a law enforcement officer is authorized to seize weapons on a temporary basis after which there would be a process for the person to get them back.

And when that is at least a plausible understanding of what he said, I really don't think it's effective to make hay out of what he said, unless he were to clarify that he really meant it in the most unconstitutional way one can.take it.

This is not me standing up for Trump -- this is me not wanting my side to unreasonably criticize when there is ample stuff to reasonably decry.
Fair enough. And if somebody's going to run with it, it might better be some of the NRA people -- they may get an audience among some of the diehards that nobody else would.

Don Enrico, I think Trump's a fairly firm believer in 'free speech for me but not for thee'. Nazi chants at a rally? Perfectly fine. Kneeling at a football game? Oughtta be forbidden!
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  #183  
Old 05 March 2018, 08:44 AM
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White House pours cold water on Trump's support for gun control
Quote:
Press secretary Sarah Sanders told reporters on Friday morning that Trump told top NRA official Chris Cox “that he’ll continue to support the second amendment, that’s not something that he’s backed away from. The background check system is something that he’s still very much interested in improving.”

She insisted, though, that this support did “not necessarily [mean] universal background checks” and also threw cold water on Trump’s statements that he supported raising the age limit to buy an assault weapon to 21.

“Conceptually, he still supports raising the age to 21. But he also knows there’s not a lot of broad support for that,” she said.
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  #184  
Old 14 March 2018, 01:42 PM
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And the first instance of an armed teacher injuring students is in...

Seaside High teacher accidentally fires gun in class, students injured

Quote:
SEASIDE, Calif. — A teacher who also serves as a reserve police officer accidentally fired a gun inside a Seaside High School classroom Tuesday, police said, and three students were injured.

Dennis Alexander was teaching a course about gun safety for his Administration of Justice class when his gun went off at 1:20 p.m.

Alexander was pointing his gun at the ceiling when it fired. Pieces of the ceiling fell to the ground.

Three things jump out at me:

1. This happened during a course on gun safety

2. Administration of Justice class includes lessons on taking down an armed person

3. No one reported it. The injured students carried on with the class with bullet fragments in their neck and it was not tended to until they got home and the parents saw the blood.

I'm getting that meme building feeling... remember the days when teachers did not carry... remember the days when the President was honourable... remember the days when law class consisted of learning how the government and courts worked... remember the days when countries stood by their allies... remember the days when the Russians were the bad guys and not to be emulated...

I'm getting carried away.
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  #185  
Old 14 March 2018, 01:53 PM
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Yeah, the part about "Oh, I fired a gun in school and just carried on!" is the most wrong part to me. Or the fact that the guy was not supposed to have a gun at all. Or that this highly trained person screwing up like this won't make people shut up about "Oh, just arm the teachers! That will stop school violence!"

There seems to be a three way tie for most wrong part here.
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  #186  
Old 14 March 2018, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by UEL View Post
3. No one reported it. The injured students carried on with the class with bullet fragments in their neck and it was not tended to until they got home and the parents saw the blood. .
I can't understand how any school employee thinks that's acceptable.
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  #187  
Old 14 March 2018, 03:49 PM
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So many things wrong:
First off, he should have been using a rubber gun, not a real one. You only use a real gun when you need to fire, dry or regular.
Second, you never have live rounds anywhere near training unless it is live fire.
Third, how did no one else in the school hear the gunshot? Someone should have at least checked to make sure this wasn't another school shooting.
Fourth, was there a floor above? Bullets don't always stop in the ceiling.
ETA: Fifth, you check that a gun is not loaded by opening the action, not by pulling the trigger.
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  #188  
Old 14 March 2018, 04:53 PM
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Just from the name and description, I'm guessing that Administration of Justice class could be described as "Intro to Being a Police Officer." It could be done as a legitimate vocational ed kind of class, or a legitimate and provocative class about how the criminal justice system is administered in this country. I'm guessing it is more the former. And this is purely speculation, but I'm also guessing that the teacher is a wannabe cop who is oy a reserve officer for a reason.
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  #189  
Old 20 March 2018, 04:27 AM
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Default Florida shooter's brother arrested at school, authorities say

The brother of the teen charged with killing 17 people at a Florida school was arrested Monday afternoon for trespassing at the same school, authorities said. Zachary Cruz, 18, was arrested at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School and charged with trespassing on school grounds, a Broward Sheriff's Office report said.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/zachary...ay-2018-03-19/
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  #190  
Old 21 March 2018, 05:31 PM
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I've seen numerous claims that David Hogg's mother works or worked for CNN.

Any truth to that claim?
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  #191  
Old 21 March 2018, 06:09 PM
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She took a tour of CNN headquarters about two years ago and took pictures. That seems to be the sole source of "evidence" for that claim.

ETA: Also, even if she was, how does that negate his point in the real world? I know that in hyper-conservative land, any connection between two things is proof that the entire world is a conspiracy against them, but in the actual world having his mother work at CNN isn't proof that he is some type of actor (I assume that's what the dog-whistle idea is).

Last edited by GenYus234; 21 March 2018 at 06:17 PM.
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  #192  
Old 31 March 2018, 10:52 PM
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A short but interesting article from a peer of the shooter, addressing the "If he had had friends, this may never have happened" argument.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/2...g-florida.html
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  #193  
Old 01 April 2018, 12:59 PM
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The "Befriending the outcasts is the best way to stop school shootings" meme reminds me of "Just Say No."
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  #194  
Old 01 April 2018, 03:07 PM
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A quick disclaimer- I do not advocate bullying behavior, being cruel or deliberately excluding classmates who are less socially capable. (Lord knows I've been that kid).

However- sometimes there's a valid reason someone has no friends. Sometimes that reason is that they are a sociopath.

That's not something that goes away once you've been invited to enough birthday parties or had enough people say hi to you in the hallway.
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  #195  
Old 01 April 2018, 04:13 PM
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And not every school shooter was a bully victim, either.
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  #196  
Old 02 April 2018, 01:57 AM
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Exactly, Crocoduck. The Columbine shooting, which helped incubate a lot of myths regarding school shootings, was painted as bullied kids lashing out, but in reality, both shooters had bragged about bullying other kids and if their classmates did have negative feelings towards them prior to the shooting, it’s because they were assholes who walked up and down the hallways, giving Nazi salutes.

As for the Parkland asshole, as this [editorial in the New York Times conforms, the Parkland asshole wasn’t a troubled misfit pushed too far; the guy was an asshole with a poisonous ego and a a sense of Entitlement the size of Mount Everest.

In fact, my one line descriptor, generally describes most of these mass shooters. Only a small percentage have some form of mental illness. The rest, if they are suffering from a mental illness, it’s one called Entitlement. They are egotistic NFBSKwads who feel they should have whatever they want, because they just deserve it, and if they don’t get what they want, they lash out at the public via lead-filled temper tantrums.

Speaking as someone who was an angry, depressed bullied teenager, #WalkUp is such a toxic load of bullshit. Not only are they blaming maimed and murdered teenagers for what happened to them, addressing bullying requires A LOT more than just slogans.

Years of bullying left me twitchy and paranoid as hell, so whenever someone DID try to talk to me, I clamped my lips together and only gave one word answers. I assumed that they were just trying to get something they could use to spread around school and humiliate me, which wasn’t an unreasonable assumption, given that it had happened before. In fact, I hated the nice ones and the ones who felt sorry for me, more than the actual bullies. The bullies were shitstains, but at least, they were honest; I knew at all times where I stood with them.

In any case, feeling sorry for me or, in short, pity, is pretty much the most worthless of emotions if there’s no actions. Those classmates may have felt sorry for me, but they didn’t take it much further than that, didn’t consider what it was like to be me and have to constantly face a hostile world. They never actually did something like, say, tell the bullies to STFU.

In any case, probably any kid, troubled or otherwise, can see through the BS. How do you think a troubled kid would feel, if the only reason people were being nice to them, is because they’re afraid he or she will shoot up the school. You don’t think that wouldn’t hurt or anger them in any way? Kids aren’t rock-stupid. Just as we know which trophies actually mean something and which are for participation, we can easily detect other forms of BS.

Even if the Parkland students had bullied the hell out of him that doesn’t make it okay to shoot them, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pass tighter gun laws so a shooter can’t kill people with what amounts to a civilian version of a machine gun.

For the record, I’ve decided to follow the Some Asshole Initiative. Hence why I just refer to the Parkland shooter as the Parkland Asshole and don’t use his name.

Last edited by Mouse; 02 April 2018 at 02:05 AM. Reason: Link fix
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  #197  
Old 02 April 2018, 05:32 AM
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The 2014 Ilsa Vista victims were killed by a guy who complained that girls weren’t attracted to him. I don’t remember anyone saying, “Well maybe if more women had slept with him, he wouldn’t have had to go on a rampage.”

The “befriend the killer” victim blaming logic doesn’t hold up, IMO. Kids need to be protected from perpetrators, not told to fix them.
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  #198  
Old 02 April 2018, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Years of bullying left me twitchy and paranoid as hell, so whenever someone DID try to talk to me, I clamped my lips together and only gave one word answers. I assumed that they were just trying to get something they could use to spread around school and humiliate me, which wasn’t an unreasonable assumption, given that it had happened before.
I quite genuinely couldn't tell friendly banter from unfriendly teasing, even before I ran into the deliberately unfriendly sort.

In retrospect, some people I thought were attacking me (verbally) were trying to be friendly.

'Just be nice to people' can be harder than it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
In any case, probably any kid, troubled or otherwise, can see through the BS.
Single data point: I wasn't much good at that either; and also often thought that people were genuinely trying to be friendly when they weren't.

Sorry if that's a bit of a derail.
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  #199  
Old 02 April 2018, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
In retrospect, some people I thought were attacking me (verbally) were trying to be friendly.
There was one guy in junior high whose teasing made me absolutely miserable, and in hindsight, I think he may have been trying to be nice to me to make up for other people's bullying.
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  #200  
Old 03 April 2018, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
The 2014 Ilsa Vista victims were killed by a guy who complained that girls weren’t attracted to him. I don’t remember anyone saying, “Well maybe if more women had slept with him, he wouldn’t have had to go on a rampage.”
Yeah, I remember that shitstain. As his shitty manifesto shows, if he had a mental illness, it’s called a sense of entitlement so big, it could sink the Titanic.

For those wondering, the link in the previous paragraph, just takes you to a review of his manifesto, not the actual manifesto. Don’t know if it matters to any of you, but thought I should mention it just to be sure.

It seems to be a reoccurring meme with White Men who commit mass shootings. Rarely is there any kind of ideology behind it, save for Entitlement. They feel they deserve whatever they want, just because they want it. When society doesn’t give them the fame and fortune they deserve, they throw a lead-filled temper tantrum, because if they can’t be happy, no one can. Though they are also probably motivated by infamy, as described by the late great Roger Ebert:

Quote:
Let me tell you a story. The day after Columbine, I was interviewed for the Tom Brokaw news program. The reporter had been assigned a theory and was seeking sound bites to support it. "Wouldn't you say," she asked, "that killings like this are influenced by violent movies?" No, I said, I wouldn't say that. "But what about 'Basketball Diaries'?" she asked. "Doesn't that have a scene of a boy walking into a school with a machine gun?" The obscure 1995 Leonardo Di Caprio movie did indeed have a brief fantasy scene of that nature, I said, but the movie failed at the box office (it grossed only $2.5 million), and it's unlikely the Columbine killers saw it.

The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. "Events like this," I said, "if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids around the country: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. The kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory."

In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, the NBC Nightly News and all the other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of "explaining" them. I commended the policy at the Sun-Times, where our editor said the paper would no longer feature school killings on Page 1. The reporter thanked me and turned off the camera. Of course the interview was never used. They found plenty of talking heads to condemn violent movies, and everybody was happy.
Mass shooters also often have domestic violence charges on their record. Abused wives, girlfriends, or children, seem to be the canaries in the coal mine when it comes to these jerks, which goes with my rant that if they’re suffering from mental illness, it’s called Overweening Sense of Entitlement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Single data point: I wasn't much good at that either; and also often thought that people were genuinely trying to be friendly when they weren't.

Sorry if that's a bit of a derail.
I used to fall for the pretend friendliness as well, but as I pointed out in my post, once you’ve been betrayed by people pretending to be your friend, you get more than just a little jaded and paranoid.

In any case, I would have been NFBSKing pissed off if people were just being nice to me, because they think I’m the kind of weirdo who will shoot up the school. I imagine many former and current troubled teens would feel the same.
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