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Old 05 October 2017, 09:42 PM
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Default Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein

Two decades ago, the Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein invited Ashley Judd to the Peninsula Beverly Hills hotel for what the young actress expected to be a business breakfast meeting. Instead, he had her sent up to his room, where he appeared in a bathrobe and asked if he could give her a massage or she could watch him shower, she recalled in an interview.

“How do I get out of the room as fast as possible without alienating Harvey Weinstein?” Ms. Judd said she remembers thinking.

An investigation by The New York Times found previously undisclosed allegations against Mr. Weinstein stretching over nearly three decades, documented through interviews with current and former employees and film industry workers, as well as legal records, emails and internal documents from the businesses he has run, Miramax and the Weinstein Company.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/u...smtyp=cur&_r=0
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Old 10 October 2017, 11:10 PM
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The New Yorker has a long article detailing the allegations being made by a number of women -- some of which go beyond those being most reported in other outlets. Discretion is advised; not just because of the nature of the allegations, but because I think it's something that other women who have been subject to similar kinds of abuse will find exceedingly uncomfortable.

I think, however, it is valuable reading in particular for men who sometimes wonder why women often react the way they do to this kind of behavior. I know that, as a man, my immediate gut reaction is usually to think, "If that happened to me, I would do something. If I couldn't stop it from happening physically, I would report it immediately to the police; if necessary, I'd go to the media; I would not allow myself to be intimidated into backing down." (I would be curious to know if many women who have not actually been raped or seriously abused/harassed sometimes have a similar feeling.) The feelings and experiences of these women might help explain some of the reasons why it doesn't necessarily work that way; particularly because of the power Weinstein had in their industry, but some of it could apply to almost anyone.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...-their-stories
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Old 11 October 2017, 01:17 AM
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E. Q., I honestly don’t think I know any women who have never been sexually harassed, but I haven’t been raped or systematically abused, so here are my feelings on it. There was a time I assumed I would immediately tell, and at this point in my life with a supportive network of friends and family, I *think* I still probably would. But it depends on the situation. After listening to friends’ stories of the crippling psychological affects that kind of assault can have on someone, there are many scenarios where I can understand why shame, a lack of support, or lack of proof could keep someone silent, no matter who they are or what their lives are like.

Donna Karen suggested in the last few days (and has since apologized) that some of Harvey’s victims set themselves up for abuse by the way they dressed or acted. A female acquaintance of mine said today some of those girls probably thought it was worth it to be famous. Instagram has already been shaming Gwyneth Paltrow, both for not speaking up at first, and now for speaking up. In a world like this, how can we expect victims to tell?
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Old 11 October 2017, 02:41 AM
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Yeah, exactly. Given the range of time of these stories, how many more women haven't spoken up? And, for that matter, there probably were some who were at least semi-willing participants, out of fear or ambition (or maybe even a few who actually just found him attractive). The story I found particularly interesting and depressing is the woman who blamed herself for not fighting harder.

I think it's too easy to look at this and similar incidents from the outside, and say "They should have spoken up sooner" or "How could they continue to associate with him after that?"
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Old 11 October 2017, 01:26 PM
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Who here believe Weinstein's excuse of 'I grew up in the 60s/70s when that sort of thing was more acceptable.'?

Lots of other men grew up/came of age in the same time period and they're not cads.
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Old 11 October 2017, 02:51 PM
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Following up on thoughts about how could this could go on so long/why didn't they say something?

I work in higher education. Some time ago, an academic department hired a recent graduate to teach a couple of courses and also hold a staff position that included a lot of interaction with students. Rumors began to spread concerning inappropriate behavior, and it was soon common knowledge that he was sexually harassing many female students. (I don't believe he ever succeeded in making anyone succumb to his advances, but he was generally a creep.) Unfortunately, this was all hearsay; students would not come forward with formal complaints for fear of retaliation, and once they graduated they just wanted to put it behind them. The department and school also feared retaliation if any action was taken against him that wouldn't stick. (I'd prefer not to go into detail, but I believe their fears were justified.) This went on for 2 or 3 years. Finally one graduating student decided she wouldn't drop it, and justice was swift.

I later found out through a mutual friend that - while the guy confided that he had acted inappropriately in the past - he didn't think he was at all inappropriate with the student who pressed the issue.
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Old 11 October 2017, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
Who here believe Weinstein's excuse of 'I grew up in the 60s/70s when that sort of thing was more acceptable.'?

Lots of other men grew up/came of age in the same time period and they're not cads.
I was in my teens in the 60's and in my twenties in the 70's.

From my own experience: a) most men did not behave like that and b) when one did, it wasn't considered anything that one reported; because without evidence of physical force having been used, we wouldn't have expected anyone to prosecute, or indeed to do anything other than give the reporter a hard time.

Even with some evidence of physical force -- if you'd gone freely into a man's room? Most people would have thought the trouble the reporter would get would be too much to deal with.

You might warn your friends. You might be too embarrassed to do that.

(I went freely into lots of men's rooms, in the 70's and late 60's. Almost none of them harassed me, and even those took no for an answer. I did have one man threaten me with retaliation in the form of social censure -- and at that time in my life and from that person it was a significant threat; but when I reported it to a (male) friend he didn't think it was anything to be bothered about. I never reported it to anyone else.)
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Old 11 October 2017, 03:13 PM
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Add to all those reasons the fact that Weinstein could have squashed their careers/livelihoods.
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Old 11 October 2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Add to all those reasons the fact that Weinstein could have squashed their careers/livelihoods.
Or if not Weinstein, then some other powerful person who advised the victim(s) to not make waves.
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Old 11 October 2017, 05:29 PM
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My dealings with a different creep he was good at making it sound like you are the only one with a problem and that everyone else was either cool with his behavior or unworthy of his attention.
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Old 11 October 2017, 06:12 PM
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I may have talked about this already on these boards, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself.

My grandmother, a nurse from the 50s through the 80s, has horror stories about sexual harassment from doctors as she was starting nursing. She specifically tells about scrubbing up for surgery and then having to stand in the sterile field with hands up to prevent contamination. At this point, doctors would come in and basically molest the nurses (pinch rear ends, fondle breasts) because if the nurse hit or pushed the doctor away, or moved out of the sterile field, they'd have to scrub up again. This would possibly delay the surgery, which meant THEY would get in trouble.

Basically, if a doctor wasn't happy with a nurse, it was reported to her supervisor and she would be reprimanded or fired as a result.

It follows the same story. If you have power and can wield it with impunity to further hurt those who accuse them, many will abuse it.
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Old 11 October 2017, 07:02 PM
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THE best take on why so many stayed silent is from Terry Crews:
Terry Crews captures why sexual assault survivors don't come forward

(CNN) — Actor Terry Crews said he understands why women are reluctant to raise sexual harassment allegations against Hollywood power brokers like Harvey Weinstein.

Why does he get it? "Because this kind of thing happened to ME," Crews said Tuesday.

Crews ... did not name the "high level Hollywood executive" whom he accused of groping him at an industry event in 2016. He thought about challenging him until he considered the possible headlines on the incident: "240 lbs. Black Man stomps out Hollywood Honcho," he surmised. "Only I probably wouldn't have been able to read it because I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN JAIL. So we left."

Crews said he talked to people who worked with the executive. The next day, the executive called Crews to apologize, "but never really explained why he did what he did," Crews said.

"I decided not to take it further because I didn't want to be ostracized -- par for the course when the predator has power and influence," he said on Twitter.

"I let it go. And I understand why many women who this happens to let it go," he continued, laying out the potential scenario:

Who's going 2 believe you? ( few) What r the repercussions?(many) Do u want 2 work again? (Yes) R you prepared 2b ostracized?(No)
— terrycrews (@terrycrews) October 10, 2017


I am very glad he did that. But on the other hand, it's sad that for many, the explanation will have more weight coming from a man.
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Old 11 October 2017, 07:04 PM
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Agreed on all counts, pinqy. I have great respect for Terry Crews. I highly recommend his memoir.
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  #14  
Old 11 October 2017, 10:29 PM
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The analogy that occurred to me this morning is that I think some people have the same kind of reaction they have when they hear about some kinds of mass shootings: "Why didn't anyone try to stop it? If the guy's probably going to shoot you anyway, why not try to rush him? If three or four people went after him, he probably couldn't get them all." And from a detached point of view, there's some logic to that.

But until someone has actually been in a room where someone is shooting everyone he can see, I don't think you can have any real idea what you would actually do, or the emotions and thoughts going through the heads of the people involved.

As for the "he grew up in a different time" excuse -- pfah. Not even the beginning of an excuse. And particularly not for someone who publicly supported women's rights and other liberal causes -- you can't say he didn't know better.

(Passing a TV this morning, I heard them refer to "Serial sexual abuser and Democratic donor Harvey Weinstein." Yes, Fox of course. Still, Weinstein did donate and host fund-raisers for Democrats, particularly for Hillary Clinton, and it is a bit uncomfortable that it was five days after the story broke that she finally released a statement on the charges. I don't necessarily agree that she is obliged to return the donations, though some other Democrats have, or -- better, IMHO -- given them to charity.)
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Old 12 October 2017, 01:36 AM
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Even if he was a dyed-in-the-wool conservative, FOX Noise would still have labeled him as a Democrat donor.
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Old 12 October 2017, 03:00 AM
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BTW, anyone else notice that this was the exact lifestyle that people were praising Hugh Hefner about a couple weeks ago? Rich, powerful older man using his influence and money to get young, vulnerable women?
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Old 12 October 2017, 04:57 AM
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There's something disturbing about every facet of this story. Seth MacFarlane is getting his joke from 2013 replayed with the claim that it was his way of calling Weinstein out. But the joke (now these five can stop pretending they're attracted to him) is the opposite. If anything it puts the blame or at least the focus pretty directly on the actresses behaviour. How is that calling him out or "taking a swing in his direction" at all?? Ugh.
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Old 12 October 2017, 04:59 AM
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I hadn’t, but that’s an interesting point.

Now that you point it out, NBC published a glowing tribute article about Hefner, calling him a “visionary leader who changed the fabric of America,” but declined to break the Weinstein story. Incidentally, they also opted against releasing the infamous Trump tape about grabbing women.

Hefner tribute: https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/...hefner-n805401

Weinstein reticence: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0eb18af059685
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Old 12 October 2017, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
There's something disturbing about every facet of this story. Seth MacFarlane is getting his joke from 2013 replayed with the claim that it was his way of calling Weinstein out. But the joke (now these five can stop pretending they're attracted to him) is the opposite. If anything it puts the blame or at least the focus pretty directly on the actresses behaviour. How is that calling him out or "taking a swing in his direction" at all?? Ugh.
Seth MacFarlane doesn't think that saying "maybe you shouldn't have provoked [your rapist]" is victim blaming, either.
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Old 12 October 2017, 08:29 PM
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BTW, anyone else notice that this was the exact lifestyle that people were praising Hugh Hefner about a couple weeks ago? Rich, powerful older man using his influence and money to get young, vulnerable women?
I haven't actually heard that Hefner resorted to using any kind of force or threats of retribution (though I admit I haven't researched the matter in detail). He may well have used his position as a bribe, of course (and I suspect that a lot of the conduct in his clubs that would be clearly be seen as harassment now, was not looked at that way in the sixties -- which doesn't excuse it, but it makes it less shocking).

I suspect that many people's reaction would be "Well, it's Hefner, his whole fame is built around that kind of thing -- anyone who wanted to work for him or appear in his magazine knows what she's getting into." Whereas Weinstein was, in theory, a respected producer of all kinds of films, so the behavior might be seen as less expected (at least in the 21st century -- things I've read about the early days of Hollywood seem to indicate that it was pretty much standard operating procedure back in the 1930's...)
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