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  #161  
Old 12 October 2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
I know both reasons would be based on fake news, but I wonder which one is more prominent?
tl;dr Fake news isn't required when the response is emotional, not rational.

Where you go wrong is in using the word "reason". I don't think there's any appreciable reasoning going on. People buy weapons because the weapons make them feel something, for example safety, even when rationally speaking more is not better even if one buys the argument that being armed makes someone safer. In addition to safety, they may feel powerful, special, intelligent or any number of emotional responses not supported by a specific rational argument. They don't require any specific (or reasonable) threat just the general notion that "now is the time". I've asked people I know who aren't arms hoarders but defend those who are. Their answers, including the ones you give, disintegrate with the slightest bit of rational thinking - sometimes contradicting each other - but it doesn't matter; that reason has taken a backseat to emotion is very clear.
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  #162  
Old 12 October 2017, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
What made me shake my head was the way gun sales spiked immediately after the 2008 election. Apart from the fact that Obama wasn't all that anti-gun in the first place, you wonder if these people realize that (a) he wouldn't actually take office for more than two months, and (b) any major action would take additional months at the very least? I suppose they could have been figuring that everyone else would be rushing out to buy, too, and they'd better get theirs before they got scarce.
My ex-boyfriend was convinced that Hillary, Obama, and the Democrats were going to take away his guns. He had an arsenal stockpiled in his shed. His father was a Doomsday prepper who encouraged him. When I found out about the guns -- actually when I came over to visit him and found multiple terrifying-looking rifles spread out on the dining room table -- it became one of the reasons I broke up with him. Having a rifle for hunting or recreational target practice is one thing, but I couldn't tolerate his paranoia or the sheer amount of guns and ammunition I found in the garage. He said it was his constitutional right, and that American citizens deserved to own the same weapons that the military had, so that "we" could defend ourselves against our government. Like he literally thought a SWAT team or something was going to go door-to-door to confiscate guns in the name of Obama. Did he think he was going to barricade himself in his house and fend them off by shooting at them or something? It was scary to be in the presence of someone who was spouting this delusion, especially since I'd known him for years but knew nothing of his gun fanaticism for a long time. I told him the government would always have bigger and badder weapons than him. He said that was the entire problem.

It's been many years since I had contact with him, but whenever I hear about a shooter in Florida, I always have to check to make sure it wasn't him.
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  #163  
Old 12 October 2017, 01:42 AM
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That describes about half the people in my county, Cervus.
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  #164  
Old 12 October 2017, 08:16 AM
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I remember when Australia toughened it gun control laws after the Port Author Massacre someone wrote to the local paper warning the dire consequence of doing this and the only reason the Japanese didn't invade Australia during World War 2 was that some many of ours citizens were armed and they were scared. They offered no proof and I call bs on this. The Japanese swept through much of Asia and the Nazis swept through most of Europe with few problems.

Of cause it is nationalist pride with more then a touch of racism "one Aussie with a gun is worth x number of whomever with a gun"

I don't think we have the type of deluded soul Cervus mentioned thinking they could beat a trained and professional solders and/or police due to their own natural superiority. Or at least in the same number. But I am sure they are out there.

And personally if you want to scare foreigners...just mention our wildlife, snakes, crocodiles, spiders, sharks, DROPBEARS!!! Everything is out to kill you!!!

Much more effective
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  #165  
Old 12 October 2017, 01:33 PM
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There are people actively spreading urban legends -- well, maybe more like lies -- that the measures in Australia didn't work. My Trumpist brother tried it, and my snopester FB friends were right on it. Including Dropbear, IIRC.
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  #166  
Old 12 October 2017, 01:36 PM
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That's like the claim that the Holocaust started with Hitler taking the guns from the German jews - a claim that has been throughoutly debunked.

By the way, both German Communists and Social Democrats had militia-like organisations that were at least partly made up of trained soldiers of WWI and had access to weapons. That didn't help much against the Nazi Party controlling both police and armed forces.

Last edited by Don Enrico; 12 October 2017 at 01:50 PM.
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  #167  
Old 12 October 2017, 01:41 PM
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Sorry, doublepost.
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  #168  
Old 12 October 2017, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
There are people actively spreading urban legends -- well, maybe more like lies -- that the measures in Australia didn't work. My Trumpist brother tried it, and my snopester FB friends were right on it. Including Dropbear, IIRC.
I remember when Australia first passed those laws: only thing I heard was about how the murder rate in Australia had jumped astronomically, OMG!

Of course, in real life, guns are a really poor method of defending your home. Firstly because they're something that attracts criminals to try and steal them. And also because the rate of people being accidentally killed or injured by a gun in their home is much higher than the rate at which people successfully use guns to defend their homes.
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  #169  
Old 12 October 2017, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Of course, in real life, guns are a really poor method of defending your home. Firstly because they're something that attracts criminals to try and steal them. And also because the rate of people being accidentally killed or injured by a gun in their home is much higher than the rate at which people successfully use guns to defend their homes.
But this is one of those cases where everyone thinks they're the exception: that they're not going to make the kind of mistakes that lead to an accidental shooting, and of course they'll never use the gun for attack, only defense, and they'll make sure their kids can't get at it or know how to handle it responsibly, etc. It's the same way everyone thinks they're an above-average driver.

Of course, I *am* an above-average driver, so that doesn't apply to me.
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  #170  
Old 13 October 2017, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
There are people actively spreading urban legends -- well, maybe more like lies -- that the measures in Australia didn't work. My Trumpist brother tried it, and my snopester FB friends were right on it. Including Dropbear, IIRC.
A friend of mine (who's not a snopester afaik) posted a response to a conspiracy theory type repost on FB about Las Vegas. In a very snopester-like way, he refuted point by point every sentence of the post - which was something to the effect of "how could the shooter have done A and B and C...?" At the same time he made fun of the grammar ("why are these always written so badly?"). So of course all the responses were to the effect of "oh I'm sure you've never made any grammar mistakes..." as if... Then, of course, the unfriending... *sigh* Anyway, on the one hand it's fatiguing but on the other it's nice to see the facts still have some allies out there.
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  #171  
Old 13 October 2017, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I would say the spike in sales of bump-stocks after the Las Vegas incident supports the "fear of a ban" theory, since it looks like something may well actually happen there, even with Republicans in charge.

What made me shake my head was the way gun sales spiked immediately after the 2008 election. Apart from the fact that Obama wasn't all that anti-gun in the first place, you wonder if these people realize that (a) he wouldn't actually take office for more than two months, and (b) any major action would take additional months at the very least? I suppose they could have been figuring that everyone else would be rushing out to buy, too, and they'd better get theirs before they got scarce.
Itís yet another reiteration of a general meme on the Right: itís not enough to have everything if they canít have the tears of losers. Hence why you have Rightwing politicians whinging and whining about how persecuted they are, despite controlling all three branches of government and making enough money to buy the world ten times over. It really hurts their feelings, when people call them bad names and demand equitable treatment, and we all know hurt feelings are totally equivalent to what PoC have gone through.
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  #172  
Old 13 October 2017, 03:45 PM
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To be fair, it's not only the right that wants to whinge about persecution. Yeah, they have a bit less reason to complain (although the US leans very right on many issues, it is a very mixed bag) and, true, it certainly doesn't suit their other rhetoric but it kind of goes with the territory of politics. People are driven by their emotions so fear and anger driven by stories of persecution are very powerful. It would be a bit more surprising if they said "well, we got what we wanted - all three branches - so let's cool our jets for a while". That doesn't get them anything. When the other side is on the ropes, the natural instinct is to go for the KO and they've honed these tactics over the past 30 years, bringing it right into new media.
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  #173  
Old 13 October 2017, 05:48 PM
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https://www.google.com/amp/www.chica...story,amp.html

The timeline I posted about earlier is apparently wrong. The sheriff has released a new version, which says that the security guard in the hallway was shot before the massacre of the concert-goers started. The hotel and the sheriff disagree on how long before. (6 minutes vs 40 seconds, I guess). The guard called it in on his radio, and a maintenance worker also radioed about hearing shots on the 32nd floor. So, now there are more questions about why it took police until 10:17 to reach Paddock's room, if the guard reported being shot at 9:59. And, it again raises the question of why he stopped shooting when he did.
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  #174  
Old 13 October 2017, 06:23 PM
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I was at the salon getting my hair done last night and heard a brand new (to me) conspiracy theory about "Lone Wolf" shootings like this: The guys who are committing these crimes don't have the skills to pull them off, so there must be someone else pulling the strings, some organization ("not necessarily ISIS, or anyone foreign") behind these attacks who are just using the "lone wolves."

Supposedly what inspired this was her reading about the calculations the LV shooter did, and her assumption that he couldn't possibly know how to do that, because he was never in the military.

I refrained from pointing out all the other ways he could have learned that stuff.
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  #175  
Old 13 October 2017, 06:47 PM
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The only thing I've heard about that might have involved calculations was that they found a paper with what they thought were ranges to targets. Are those the calculations, or are there others? If it was those, then I could do them from my background in having taken high school trigonometry. (I would need a calculator, but the one on my phone would be more than enough. I might need to look up the formula to be sure I was setting it up right--but even if I couldn't do that, I could work it out from knowing the basics plus a little trial and error.) No military experience here, or necessary. There are also rangefinding devices. Maybe there were also ballistic computations with them, but that also seems potentially pretty easy to look up.

I'm interested to hear (not just directed at Lainie) what calculations there were, or that they could be referring to, and how much experience it would take to do them.

Last edited by erwins; 13 October 2017 at 06:52 PM.
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  #176  
Old 13 October 2017, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
"Yeah, he had written, he must have done the calculations online or something to figure out what his altitude was going to be on how high up he was — how far out the crowd was going to be and what at that distance and what the drop of his bullet was going to be. He hadn't written out the calculations; all he had was written out the final numbers that were on the sheet."
Link

ETA: Notice the police offer quoted above even said "online or something."
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  #177  
Old 13 October 2017, 07:28 PM
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Taking wind and bullet drop into account its more than simple trigonometry, but nothing I couldn't figure out with a little help from Google. It wouldn't take military training to figure out.
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  #178  
Old 13 October 2017, 07:56 PM
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Especially when you're just firing indiscriminately into a large crowd.
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  #179  
Old 13 October 2017, 08:25 PM
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That's what I meant by ballistic computations--the targeting adjustments you would make for bullet drop at a particular distance, and wind. (I don't know what the term for these calculations is.) He certainly didn't need the calculations to be very precise given the way he was firing. Knowing roughly how much to adjust seems like it would do the trick--and it could certainly be something he could look up.

I suppose it's possible that he posted somewhere online and was either pointed to a place to get the info, or someone could actually have helped him get the precise info, maybe even by doing the calculations. If anyone did, it would be great if they would come forward because it could be helpful info to have. But even if someone did help him in any of those ways, it's entirely possible that they had no knowledge of what he planned to do. There seems to be no reason to think at this point that he had help in the sense of an accomplice.
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  #180  
Old 13 October 2017, 08:33 PM
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Yeah, if he had been trying to hit a specific person, or even a small group, those calculations would be a lot more important. As far as we can tell, though, he didn't care who he hit. (And you can't be all that accurate when you're using a bump stock, anyway -- though he apparently had scoped weapons that might have been used at some point, or could have been if he decided he wanted to be more discriminating.)

What gets me about the "victimization" on the right is how often it just seems so...twisted. The arguments about same-sex marriage, for example: I kept hearing about how we were "forcing" our values on them. Uh...you realize you can still marry a member of the opposite sex, right? I would certainly be opposed to mandatory same-sex marriage....
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