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Old 17 September 2018, 02:58 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is online now
 
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Default On de-platforming



The tweet is real.

The context is regarding that TV show I linked in a separate thread, where Storer himself appeared just last week (He gained about a thousand followers from his appearance). Specifically, in tonight’s episode, the panelists (David Marr, Andrew Neil, Germaine Greer, Sisonke Msimang and Elena Jeffcoat) discussed how denying platforms is in fact bad for discussion.

Here’s the video, for now. The specific question is about 50 minutes in.

I can only agree up to a point. While it is certainly necessary to put, say, Germaine Greer and Anita Sarkeesian in a panel (or maybe Clem Ford and Daisy Cousens), I would have to draw the line at any alt-right commentators. I do not believe that people like Lauren Southern, Stefan Molyneux or Sargon of Akkad contribute anything useful to the discussion.
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Old 17 September 2018, 03:13 PM
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Don't know about the people you mentioned, but the people on the alt-right are generally not interested in open, honest, or respectful. Their version of "free speech" is that they can say whatever they want without any consequences* while preventing anyone against them from doing the same.

* Legal, financial, social, etc
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  #3  
Old 18 September 2018, 12:25 AM
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Well, the only alt-right people I mentioned are the three at the end. I am, however, quite concerned that Chelsea Manning was denied a visa while Southern and Molyneux were allowed to speak down here.
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Old 18 September 2018, 12:36 AM
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It's interesting that the international community is not nearly as loud in supporting Ms. Manning now that she’s out (and wishes to visit other countries) as they were when she was facing justice within the US. I believe Canada also refused her entry.
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Old 18 September 2018, 12:38 AM
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De-platforming or no-platforming is a fictional thing that right wingers came up with so they can pretend they're being persecuted for something and falsely appeal to the sense of fair play of people who haven't actually payed attention to what they're really like.
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Old 18 September 2018, 02:14 AM
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Crocoduck, here’s the actual question:

Quote:
When I heard about how Germaine Greer had been dropped from the Brisbane Writers' Festival and about the issue of no-platforming, I was saddened because in my daily life, it is increasingly difficult to understand the worldviews of others simply because their voices don't come up on my newsfeed. In a world of tailored filtered information, what is being done to ensure that young people especially are adequately aware of different worldviews and are equipped to navigate challenging viewpoints?
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Old 18 September 2018, 02:37 AM
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One example of "de-platforming" gone wrong, IMHO, was when Brandeis University rescinded its offer of an honorary degree to Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the grounds that she was "islomophobic." Allah forbid we allow ex-Muslim apostates turned atheist activists and asylum-seekers to speak out against Islam. Oh, and women. For that matter, let’s not let them speak at all, right guys?
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Old 18 September 2018, 02:42 AM
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We all have the right to our opinions and it probably does everyone some good to be exposed to those whose opinions differ. Still, the people being de-platformed, to use those words, because they were violating terms and conditions, being abusive towards other users, not because they were Conservative. But it is something those kind of commentators are fond of, nailing themselves to a cross, weeping and moaning about how much it hurts to be nailed to a cross, and blaming everyone else for nailing them to a cross as they drive in the nails.

Or there’s another metaphor I like to use: they’re the kids on the playground who spend all their time kicking dirt into the eyes of the other kids, yet as soon as someone kicks some dirt back, they go, “I’m telling!” and run bawling to the playground monitor. The idea that someone may not enjoy having dirt kicked into their eyes and might do something about it, always seems so inconceivable to them.

I can see that pattern with the alt-Right. Always seem so shocked by any backlash, being like “I had no idea people would react so badly to me saying, ‘All X must die.’” I’d say they’re about as credible as Claude Rains in Casablanca being shocked, shocked to find out that there’s illegal gambling going down at Rick’s bar, as the croupier slips him his take, but that feels unfair to Claude Rains’s character. As I recall, he showed some redeeming traits.
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  #9  
Old 18 September 2018, 04:18 AM
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Here’s the permanent link to the video: https://youtu.be/tii6jqZTYUk

Again, the question is at about the 50 minute mark.
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Old 18 September 2018, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
One example of "de-platforming" gone wrong, IMHO, was when Brandeis University rescinded its offer of an honorary degree to Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the grounds that she was "islomophobic."
That's because she's got a reputation for being factually inaccurate and making sweeping generalizations that portray Islam as a monolithic group that's completely opposed to democratic values while ignoring the existence of liberal Muslims and excusing the behavior she claims to deplore when it comes from non-Muslim groups. Brandeis University was perfectly within its rights to decide that it didn't want to associate with her.
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Old 18 September 2018, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu View Post
Here’s the permanent link to the video: https://youtu.be/tii6jqZTYUk

Again, the question is at about the 50 minute mark.
My answer would be that the question is built on the false assumption that to have an understanding of other worldviews necessitates having been exposed to them firsthand. I'm also skeptical that there really is an issue with people not knowing about other worldviews in general, as it seems to me that even if one only seeks out sources that align with their own views, one must deliberately shut out all contrary information, and be inept at recognizing straw men in order to be ignorant of what those views are.

Which is to say I doubt that this is an issue for most people outside of the 'I only watch Fox News because the mainstream media can't be trusted' crowd.
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  #12  
Old 19 September 2018, 01:27 AM
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Ok, for further context, see what Germaine said at about the 18-minute mark and the discussion that followed. Which includes the following:

Quote:
ANDREW NEIL
Not really. Well, I’d like to ask Germaine, though, where’s the evidence, where’s the data, for rape within marriage or long-term partnerships? What is the evidence that that is as common as you are saying it is?

GERMAINE GREER
None. We’ve never asked. There’s no evidence at all.

ANDREW NEIL
So, you’re asserting something, but you don’t have the evidence?

ELENA JEFFCOAT
It’s not true in my marriage. I just read it and just went, “Germaine, I think you are speaking for an older generation.”

GERMAINE GREER
Oh, it’s because we are too old to ****! Is that it?
Just a note, though: it revolves around an essay Germaine has published right here https://books.google.com.au/books/ab...on&redir_esc=y
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Old 19 September 2018, 02:58 AM
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Also, consider what we may miss out on, by giving out platforms willy-nilly to those the least likely to have any wisdom to impart. This may not matter too much on sites like YouTube* where everyone can make their own channel and it doesn't cost YouTube anymore money, but when it comes to real world speaking engagements, it's something to consider.

For example, a student at Berkeley wrote an editorial about how due to the security costs for Milo Yiannopoulos’s Free Speech Week stunt, Berkeley had to postpone another scheduled talk by Anna Tsing, an anthropologist. Now, I don't know anything about Ms. Tsing's work or really much about anthropology, period, but most of us would agree that her talk would be more valuable and educational than any of Milo's ravings.

But Berkeley had gotten themselves in a bind. By hosting Milo's shitstorm, security costs skyrocketed, but at the same time, after all, the hullabaloo that resulted from protests, if they had canceled, the Right would be like, "OMG! See they do hate Free Speech!" and there would be another massive shitstorm that endangers the lives and property of anyone in the area.

That's something to consider about all these platform debates. Like it or not, by giving someone an opportunity to speak, you take that opportunity away from someone else. There are many opportunities out there, maybe even better ones, but someone is missing out on an opportunity. If you're going to give that opportunity to someone, it might be good to make sure that the person you give it to, has something worth sharing and isn't just a screaming, contrary shithead. To use the example from before, maybe I wouldn't have liked the talk and maybe I would have disagreed with every word she said, but Anna Tsing probably would be more worth your time than Milo.

In the era of Internet, though really in any era, we should probably pin down and educate people more on what constitutes material worthy of debate, what kind of criticism opens up discussions and what kind should just be ignored because it has nothing to offer.

Like for example, if somebody were to criticize their school cafeteria for its overuse of nonrecyclables and too few vegan options, whether you agree with the point, it opens up the door for discussion as to why we should/shouldn't do this, what obligations should the school cafeteria have towards its students and how far should it go to meet them, questions like this.

Whereas something like "Maybe the food would be better if it wasn't cooked by a worthless fat bitch who barely speaks English," is just being insulting. In that scenario, the person is closing the door on any discussion, because there's nothing really to discuss; it's just insults. Maybe the cook really is mean and doesn't speak good English and maybe that's why the cooking is terrible, but it could just as easily be due to any number of factors and in any case, there isn't really anything to argue. There's a difference between constructive criticism and just being an asshole.

*Again when it comes to the recent spate of Right-wingers being banned on social media, they weren't banned for being on the Right; they were banned for being abusive a-holes who violated the terms and conditions of the site they were using. A privately-owned website has every right to decide what they will and won't tolerate, regardless of how right or bone-headed you may think their decision is.
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  #14  
Old 20 September 2018, 04:07 AM
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The actual problem I’m finding with right-wing YouTubers is that they’re all saying the exact same things. They’re all incensed that Planet Asia exists in Star Wars/the BBC ran with a “glass ceiling” joke for Doctor Who/someone tweeted something about Doom or whatever, and you can’t stop hearing about it.
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  #15  
Old 20 September 2018, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu View Post
you can’t stop hearing about it
Have you considered not watching right-wing YouTubers?
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Old 20 September 2018, 05:56 AM
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Indeed I have. However, recall that this is the second time a woman has played the Doctor, and the first time was a joke in a comedy special (although Lumley was previously tapped for the part. Going by her performance as Sapphire, she would have been a good fit). Obviously, people who discuss the show are going to want to have a say.

As for Rey/Rose/Finn, again, almost everyone has seen a Star Wars movie. Apparently there are also enough guys who just conveniently ignore Leia’s turn with a blaster rifle or the part where she was forced to give Tarkin and Vader information and still somehow managed to not do so (remember, the only planet she actually names is Dantooine). Or that part where Luke swung a glowing stick and later blew up a battle station (remember: he doesn’t actually use the lightsaber in that movie, and the training pays off in the trench run). But, believe it or not, I don’t watch those videos, precisely because they’re all going to say the same thing. I’m not even a fan of The Last Jedi, and I find that viewpoint a poor argument.

As for Doom…I haven’t seen any of the videos Shaun shows. Probably don’t need to, if they all cover a single post about two tweets.
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  #17  
Old 20 September 2018, 08:18 PM
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As an example of how you could maybe benefit from scrubbing your browsing history and cookies and changing your subscriptions to not be pummeled by RWNJs with names like PWJ (or is it PJW?), I wasn’t even aware there was a new Doctor Who, must less that it was a woman, much less that there was "controversy" over the casting decision.
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Old 20 September 2018, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
As an example of how you could maybe benefit from scrubbing your browsing history and cookies and changing your subscriptions to not be pummeled by RWNJs with names like PWJ (or is it PJW?), I wasn’t even aware there was a new Doctor Who, must less that it was a woman, much less that there was "controversy" over the casting decision.
July 2017 reveal that Jodie Whittaker would play the Doctor.

Footage of the regeneration, from last year’s Christmas episode.

”The Curse Of Fatal Death”, which ends on Joanna Lumley as The Doctor.

A left-wing YouTuber on said Christmas episode. He didn’t like it.

Also, just for the heck of it, the first episode of Sapphire & Steel. Mostly just to remind you that Lumley was in fact known for things that weren’t Ab Fab. (Also because I liked the show).
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Old 21 September 2018, 01:02 PM
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Jusenko, I might be wrong, but I think ASL's point was that he doesn't care; not that he was asking for further instruction on the matter.

I've never seen a Doctor Who episode. (Yes, I'm sure I can find them if I feel like it. Maybe I will sometime; but it won't be during market season, I don't have the time.) I did read that there's a female Doctor, and that some people got their panties in a twist over it; but I didn't feel called upon to read their ranting, let alone to watch them at it.

One way to de-platform people is not to read/watch them. That's an individual choice available to just about everybody; at least as long as we don't actually hit 1984.
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Old 21 September 2018, 04:38 PM
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Not only that I don’t care, but that it is possible to not be constantly bombarded by click-bait and YouTube videos targeted at alt-right and other RWNJ. You (JnP) seem to be implying it is inescapable; I would beg to differ. You can walk away from 90% of it and still be generally aware of the existence and tactics of such reactionaries so as to combat them if you ever encounter them in a friend. Skeptics need not conduct rigorous analysis and investigation themselves, only demand that proponents of something—those advancing a claim—provide sufficient evidence prior to being believed.
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