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  #1  
Old 19 January 2016, 11:49 AM
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Australia 'Pick up' instructor Jeff 'Jeffy' Allen has Australian visa cancelled

Article here: http://www.theage.com.au/federal-pol...0160118-gm8r3r

Quote:
A US man who had come to Australia to hold seminars on how to "pick up" women has had his visa cancelled on character grounds.
Immigration Minister Peter Dutton has announced that the Immigration Department had found the man was "without legitimate cause to be here" and did not meet Australia's character test.
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  #2  
Old 19 January 2016, 01:02 PM
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Read This!

Well it looks like a case of barring the door after the horse has bolted (they cancelled his visa but he'd apparently left the country already) but I'm on the fence with this one. On the one hand there's the whole "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" aspect, on the other hand a lot of his 'lessons' are apparently encouraging PUAs/MRAs to abuse women in the pursuit of sex.

I think I would have preferred that they issue him a warning and then arrest and deport him if he actually said or did anything illegal or encouraged other people to perform illegal acts. The Australian character test is very very vague in some of its language and apparently the minister can bar people's entry into the country on grounds such as:

Quote:
- you are or have been a member of a group or organisation, or had or have an association with a person, group or organisation that the Minister for Immigration reasonably suspects of involvement in criminal conduct

- your past and present criminal or general conduct shows that you are not of good character

- there is a risk that while you are in Australia you would:
-engage in criminal conduct
-harass, molest, intimidate or stalk another person
-vilify a segment of the Australian community
-incite discord in the Australian community or in a part of it
-be a danger to the Australian community or a part of it.
There's been cases where the minister used these powers to deny visas to an anti-semitic Holocaust denier bishop and misogynists (this PUA guy and another guy from the same organisation in 2014) and an anti-abortonist who apparently said that abortion doctors should be executed but he also denied working visas for singer Chris Brown and boxer Floyd Mayweather Jnr last year apparently because of their domestic violence convictions even though they issued a visa to convicted rapist Mike Tyson in 2012 with a warning that he had to abide by Australian law while he was in the country. Note also that there was a public outcry over Far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders being issued a visa because of his anti-Islamic views but some politicians actually spoke up in his defence and the visa was granted.
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  #3  
Old 24 January 2016, 04:48 AM
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Australia

In this guy's case, he's had trouble getting into plenty of other countries too because he straight up advocates tactics to pickup women that are probably not legal and that is literally the only reason he is going to Australia. So yea the character law may not be consistent, but generally people don't like to import people who are explicitly and publicly instructing others in how to rape your citizens.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...visa-cancelled

Quote:
The spiel for Jeff Allen’s book, Get Laid Or Die Trying, entices the reader by promising to teach them tactics for: “Deflecting last-minute resistance with a single word” and “Convincing a girl you just met that before you **** her, she must mow your lawn” and he gets around his home of San Francisco in a vehicle he’s nicknamed a “rape van”.

When women sexually reject him, he verbally abuses them, and a poster in an RSD forum advised rejected men to “ignore what she says and physically force her. You must be able to verbally and physically dominate a drunken 18 years (sic) old girl”.
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  #4  
Old 24 January 2016, 05:09 AM
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Errata Errata is offline
 
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It's all a bit hopeless anyway, since most of the information will be propagated online anyway, not in personal appearances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
I think I would have preferred that they issue him a warning and then arrest and deport him if he actually said or did anything illegal or encouraged other people to perform illegal acts.
Australia isn't obligated to let him visit. He's a foreign citizen and it's well within their rights to deny his visa if they think he is a "danger to the Australian community". Sure that's a vague standard and therefore probably very inconsistently applied. But better inconsistent than not at all. I'm not losing any sleep for this guy.

If he's repeatedly instructed people on how to rape, essentially, and that's the same topic that he's being invited to speak on, I don't see why they'd be obligated to risk giving him a chance and see whether he does it again. If they told him where the line was that he couldn't cross, then he'd skirt that line while delivering the same message, just in more ambiguous language.
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  #5  
Old 24 January 2016, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Australia isn't obligated to let him visit. He's a foreign citizen and it's well within their rights to deny his visa if they think he is a "danger to the Australian community". Sure that's a vague standard and therefore probably very inconsistently applied. But better inconsistent than not at all. I'm not losing any sleep for this guy.
I'm not losing any sleep for this guy either (he's a total scumbag and I'm completely opposed to his opinions and actions) but I'm still not a fan of laws that can be applied arbitrarily.

I guess I should point out the wider context of Australian politicians recently creating new laws to prevent asylum seekers from gaining access to this country, and arguing over whether to allow Syrian refugees if they're not Christians. Denying entry is a real hot button topic here at the moment.
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  #6  
Old 24 January 2016, 12:41 PM
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The reality of life is that most laws are applied arbitrarily. There are plenty of laws I see broken on a routine basis that could easily be used as an excuse to prosecute "undesirables." Most of them involve traffic, but there are others.
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  #7  
Old 24 January 2016, 02:10 PM
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The proper way of dealing with this guy is to have a girl he tries this on sic her older brother and his rugby team on him.
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  #8  
Old 24 January 2016, 02:12 PM
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I can't think of a law that couldn't be applied arbitrarily.
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  #9  
Old 24 January 2016, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
The proper way of dealing with this guy is to have a girl he tries this on sic her older brother and his rugby team on him.
Why in this scenario does your girl have to rely on a male sibling and friends?
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  #10  
Old 24 January 2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
The proper way of dealing with this guy is to have a girl he tries this on sic her older brother and his rugby team on him.
Right, because girls can't stand up for themselves and always need to enlist men to assist them.
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  #11  
Old 24 January 2016, 03:48 PM
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And girls with no male relatives are just out of luck.
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  #12  
Old 24 January 2016, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimee Evilpixie View Post
Right, because girls can't stand up for themselves and always need to enlist men to assist them.
Not necessarily. But to be able to stand back and see justice meted out without having to lift a finger oneself is so satisfying.
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  #13  
Old 24 January 2016, 04:09 PM
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MMV. I find being able to stand up for myself far more satisfying.
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  #14  
Old 24 January 2016, 04:20 PM
St. Alia St. Alia is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
Not necessarily. But to be able to stand back and see justice meted out without having to lift a finger oneself is so satisfying.
Ick. I'm not a big fan of "the proper way" of dealing with rape and rape culture being having men step in to beat the crap out of the rapist/PUA/MRA as the best, go-to way to address the issues.

Pretty sure that's actually moving backwards and works to make things worse.
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  #15  
Old 24 January 2016, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
But to be able to stand back and see justice meted out without having to lift a finger oneself is so satisfying.
No, it's not. Telling women that they need to have a man to protect them from other men does nothing to help this cultural attitude.
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  #16  
Old 24 January 2016, 06:42 PM
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It reinforces the idea that a woman's "no" need not be respected, but the "no" of her male/partner relative must be. An what happens to women who don't have male partners/relatives available to enforce their bodily autonomy for them?

It's easy to rely on that attitude. One lifelong friend and and I have, between the two of us, 5 very large, potentially very intimidating older brothers. When we were younger, we sometimes went places with one or more of them that we wouldn't have felt safe going to without them. I didn't date in high school, but if I had, I probably wouldn't have hesitated to play the scary-big-brother card.

Now I know better.

ETA: Years ago, a boyfriend and I were walking down the street and one of a group of guys we passed apparently said something to the others about me/my body. I didn't hear what he said, and if I had, I'd have ignored it, just as I had ignored so many other comments since I was 12, and we all would have continued on our way. But then-BF decided he needed to defend my honor, and confronted them. I had to run for my car, which fortunately was parked nearby, and come pick him up to keep him from getting beat up by this group of guys. He expected me to be grateful to him; he thought he was being gallant. I was furious. He didn't care how I felt or how I wanted to handle the situation. It wasn't really about me at all: it was about his ego.

Last edited by Lainie; 24 January 2016 at 06:53 PM.
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  #17  
Old 24 January 2016, 07:14 PM
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Both of my adult daughters were home over the holidays and we all went out and had a blast on New Year's eve. We were in a crowded club where they were both getting a lot of attention, and one of their friends was getting all worried about it for some reason. I assured him that they could take care of themselves fine, which they could.

He seemed to think it was my job to 'help them out' and it pissed me off. What a crappy time that would make for them if they had to find a male chaperone every time they went out. And what a crappy time when we were together if my suddenly I have to be a body guard rather than just hanging out in the club myself.

My older daughter and I used to watch the Pick up artist reality show that featured Mystery. Now she just laughs when she sees some tool trying to use those techniques.
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  #18  
Old 24 January 2016, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
Not necessarily. But to be able to stand back and see justice meted out without having to lift a finger oneself is so satisfying.
I'll be the judge of what's satisfying for me, thanks.
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  #19  
Old 24 January 2016, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhound View Post
Not necessarily. But to be able to stand back and see justice meted out without having to lift a finger oneself is so satisfying.
Really? You would feel satisfaction seeing someone who tries to pick you up beaten up by your older brother and his rugby team without you lifting a finger? Why? I was going to say I think that's pathetic but I guess you have your reasons.
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  #20  
Old 25 January 2016, 11:57 AM
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Why does he need to rely on coercion and rape tactics if his pick up techniques are so effective?

Silly me! It's because pick up artists are full of crap. I saw one in action on a documentary and it was vaguely amusing to see the number of women outright reject him with nothing but a look of contempt. Most just walked right past him while he was demonstrating how he could pick up women off the street.

At best they're just playing the number game. (more women approached = more women say no and more women say yes. But mostly they say no). Their books should more accurately be called 'How to get rejected by women more often'. At worst they're actual rapists. If the only way a woman will have sex with you is if you do your best to eliminate her ability to say no then in addition to having no human decency you've got no bloody game. It would be like me publishing a book on how to be a successful ping pong player and only offering the advice 'Bully your opponents until they give up or refuse to play and then say you've won'.

Pathetic scum, the lot of them. And they turn their followers into pathetic scum too.

Here's the book on how to attract people: be appealing. Don't be unappealing. Accept that some people just won't be attracted to you and it's nobody's fault. The end.

I don't know what to think of Australia's cancellation of this vile lizard person's visa but I do know what I think of pick up artists.
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