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  #21  
Old 25 March 2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
How does that qualify as "feminist backlash"?
How would you categorize Kallah's impulse and that of others like her to criticize this?
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  #22  
Old 25 March 2013, 07:52 PM
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There's nothing feminist or gender-related about her comment. I also don't see anything "knee-jerk" or "impulsive" about her reaction.
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  #23  
Old 25 March 2013, 08:01 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
How would you categorize Kallah's impulse and that of others like her to criticize this?
I have no clue if Kallah or the other commenter identify as feminist. I see no reason, based on her comment, to assume that she is or that she's speaking from a feminist POV. Why do YOU assume she is?

And I find it rather rude that you dismiss her perspective so easily.
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  #24  
Old 25 March 2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cervus View Post
There's nothing feminist or gender-related about her comment. I also don't see anything "knee-jerk" or "impulsive" about her reaction.
You see nothing gender-related about the design of the male condom, and you don't see anything knee-jerk about suggesting that we allocate all resources to awareness campaigns that are failing curb HIV in many African cultures, with no resources toward any other alternative no matter how small the cost?
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  #25  
Old 25 March 2013, 08:52 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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I certainly don't see how the comments are "feminist" at all. Nor is skepticism around the efficacy of a new type of condom knee-jerk.
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  #26  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
I certainly don't see how the comments are "feminist" at all.
Example comments from this admittedly terrible writeup:

"At least someone is recognizing that, for a significant number of men, preserving your partner's health and life is not incentive ENOUGH to use a condom every time. Of course, in a sane world, the response to this would be, "Hey, lets foster a culture in which men respect and don't take risks with their partners' (i.e. mostly women's) health.""

"Because feeling a little bit more pleasure is more important than making sure you don't knock your partner up and/or spread STDs. Well then, enjoy the feel of your hand, buddy."

"I'm really bored with the whole, "condoms reduce sensitivity!" whining. If you can orgasm while wearing a condom, it can't be THAT bad. Many women don't have orgasms at ALL, but by god, we need to work on technology to let the men have faster, better orgasms!"

"This surprises me based on the Bill & Melinda Gates efforts to put birth control in the hands of the person it effects most... women! I'd like to see the same effort put into making women's condoms more easily available and less expensive.
Making condoms "feel" better doesn't address the cultural issues associated with men not wanting to wear them."

All of these comments about changing culture of course are ignoring the fact that the biggest problems are in entirely different cultures than our own, and our efforts to change those cultures have largely not been successful. Safe sex awareness in the US has had some pretty good results, of course, but attacking the problem from different angles simultaneously can only be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Nor is skepticism around the efficacy of a new type of condom knee-jerk.
OK, then instead of "knee-jerk", lets just say it's a bad, poorly reasoned criticism. I think it's giving them the benefit of the doubt to assume they simply haven't given it much thought, rather than to assume that they did give it much thought and arrived at such a poor conclusion despite that. Knee-jerk is better than stupid.
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  #27  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:08 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
All of these comments about changing culture of course are ignoring the fact that the biggest problems are in entirely different cultures than our own, and our efforts to change those cultures have largely not been successful.
So.....random comments from random people on the internet equals a feminist backlash. OK.


Quote:
OK, then instead of "knee-jerk", lets just say it's a bad, poorly reasoned criticism.
I don't think it's either. I don't agree with it, but I can see where the cynicism would come from.
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  #28  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
You see nothing gender-related about the design of the male condom[?]
That is not what Kallah was referring to. Her comment was in response to EQT, who said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft
Sometimes it's just a matter of not having one on hand when things get steamy (or not wanting to pause the action to apply it). Sometimes I imagine it's ignorance, or belief in various myths about when you can or can't get pregnant, combined with carelessness or a reluctance to bring up the subject of disease. And of course there's the religion question
Those issues are not specifically male-centric, and neither EQT nor Kallah were talking about feminism, either.

But I'm done with this particular argument with you, since it's not likely to go anywhere productive.
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  #29  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
So.....random comments from random people on the internet equals a feminist backlash. OK.
I said "some" feminist backlash. I've provided quite a reasonable number of examples, which made up a significant proportion of the response to that article, and there are more examples I could have included. Many seem to be coming from a distinctly feminist perspective, some are more ambiguous. Most people don't post their credentials at the end of each post to demonstrate what ideologies their comment should be attributed to. I didn't say Queen Feminist has issued a press release from on high that all feminists officially must oppose this.
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  #30  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:30 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
I said "some" feminist backlash. I've provided quite a reasonable number of examples, which made up a significant proportion of the response to that article, and there are more examples I could have included.
The point is that your assumption that those are comments by feminists or coming from a feminist lens is rather odd.

Quote:
Many seem to be coming from a feminist perspective, some are more ambiguous.
I don't really think so, no.
And you don't know either. So why didn't you just say "from comments on articles I've read, it appears there is some backlash against this proposal."
If there WAS a "feminist backlash" here, one would expect that said backlash was coming from the active feminist community, which it's not.
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  #31  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
I don't really think so, no.
Because you personally are the gatekeeper? Comments from women that take a pro-women stance on women's issues can't possibly have feminist leanings until you've vetted them and given them your seal of approval?

The site I linked to is co-hosted with a blog that advertises itself as feminist and articles are often cross-posted, which is likely where a lot of those comments originated.
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  #32  
Old 25 March 2013, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Because you personally are the gatekeeper?
No. Because I'm a long-time participant in the feminist community.

Quote:
Comments from women that take a pro-women stance on women's issues can't possibly have feminist leanings until you've vetted them and given them your seal of approval?
Sure, they COULD. But there's no evidence that they ARE in this case. What seems apparent is that people posted comments just as they normally do on articles. Some of them seem to take a more narrow perspective, rather than a global one. That doesn't make them feminist.

Quote:
The site I linked to is co-hosted with a blog that advertises itself as feminist and articles are often cross-posted, which is likely where a lot of those comments originated.
Likely? How do you figure? You're really going out on a very shaky limb here.
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  #33  
Old 26 March 2013, 12:47 AM
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If someone comes into an evolution debate and starts making arguments in favor of Young Earth Creationism, you don't have to wait for them to self-identify to call them a creationist. Their arguments do that for them. The important thing isn't their status in some Creationists of America club, its the statements they were making. If someone makes a feminist argument, they don't need to post their PhD in women's studies to be called feminist. Maybe they aren't really a good or consistent feminist, but that's not the point. The point is the argument they were making, and in many cases the negative response has been in the form of pro-female arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Likely? How do you figure? You're really going out on a very shaky limb here.
No, I'm really not, considering how it happens all the time. I confirmed that the article was one that was cross-posted on the co-site, so users of that site would see it and their comments would go there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Some of them seem to take a more narrow perspective, rather than a global one. That doesn't make them feminist.
Taking a non-global perspective isn't what makes them feminist, it's the explicit feminism that makes them feminist.
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  #34  
Old 26 March 2013, 12:58 AM
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I would describe Kallah's objections are pointlessly luddite rather than feminist.
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  #35  
Old 26 March 2013, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I would describe Kallah's objections are pointlessly luddite rather than feminist.
First of all, I'm sorry it took so long to reply. Second of all, my comment was based on a (perhaps overly cold) view of the situation: spend the money where it will do the most good, over all, even if it means leaving out certain segments of the user base. Third of all, I would hardly consider myself a luddite, as I have absolutely no problem with new technology* in the field of barrier methods of disease and/or pregnancy prevention. I just don't think that spending millions of dollars - it seems unreasonable to assume that the 100k prize is going to be the only, or even largest, chunk of change spent on the project - trying to make small improvements to design when the same money could be used on education for current condoms. Even if they can find a new material that feels better, it still doesn't address the issues of durability and ease of application. Furthermore, unless someone manages to develop a condom that can prevent disease, but not pregnancy, there will always be social barriers that can only be overcome with education.

Yes, develop new materials and methods - we need to march forward in the very important field of disease prevention, and no, I'm not touching the pregnancy debate right now - but do not allow education of today's functional product to suffer because of it. What amounts to a drop in the R&D bucket goes much, much further when it comes to educating people.

*Or anything, for that matter. I'm as cutting edge as I can afford to be when it comes to technology and generally support funding for education.
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  #36  
Old 26 March 2013, 01:48 AM
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If I accepted the dichotomy you're suggesting between improving the product and educating people on its use, I'd agree.
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  #37  
Old 26 March 2013, 02:01 AM
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I will admit that nothing Kallah said really fits with the other comments I've noted. I was annoyed after seeing some of those comments and several more along the same lines, and was too quick to go from defending the line of research to criticizing an argument that wasn't actually made on this thread.
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  #38  
Old 26 March 2013, 02:27 AM
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I guess, Errata, my difficulty with you labeling these commenters as "Feminists" is that you seem to equate "anti-male" with Feminist. The two are not the same. In other words, you see anti-male attitudes in the comments portion of an article on line and you assume that these comments are made by feminists. I simply don't agree.

ETA: I must add that I agree that improving the design would be a very good thing. I am a bit skeptical as to whether or not it would work. The resistance to condoms there seems to be intractable, and rooted in lots of cultural, religious, and difficult to control variables

Last edited by Sylvanz; 26 March 2013 at 02:37 AM.
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  #39  
Old 26 March 2013, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
If I accepted the dichotomy you're suggesting between improving the product and educating people on its use, I'd agree.
I'm assuming funding broadly falls into three categories: money put toward only the development of new products, money put toward only the education of users, and money that could be used for either cause. All I'm saying that I personally believe the money in the third category would do more good being put toward education than additional funding of research - I'm not saying that money earmarked for research and development should suddenly be put toward user education. I do understand that with a project that encompasses most of the world, a multimillion dollar industry, a need to challenge long held social and religious beliefs, and the fate of millions of peoples lives on the line that funding is more complex than my little Venn diagram makes it sound.
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  #40  
Old 26 March 2013, 02:16 PM
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Personally, I'm cynical about the value of user education in some of the areas where greater protection from STDs is most needed. If the men in question don't respect their female partners, and don't consider the health and well-being of those partners a priority, all the condom-user education in the world won't help. They have to give a flying. Accomplishing that may be possible, but it's not product education, it's fundamental cultural change -- change I'd like to see, change that's well worth working for, but change that we can't necessarily wait for.
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