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  #41  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:09 PM
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Standard poodles can be and are used as service dogs. Here's a really cute video of one.

Sister "happy to have an excuse to share that link" Ray
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  #42  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:21 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by StillandSilent View Post
Clearly, there is a niche for them that is not being filled by current breeds. An Old English Sheepdog may come close looks-wise, but they don't really make a good pet for an average family.
That's the issue, though. They AREN'T filling a niche. Not really. People buy these because they want to have the latest thing.

There are PLENTY of existing breeds out there without having to create this monstrosity of a mix. And, frankly, most doodles I've met make HORRID family pets.

I actually don't have a beef with attempting to create a true breed if the need is there (Black Russian Terrier, for example). I don't even object to crossbreeding for a specific working purpose (Lurchers, for example, although I draw the line at the flyball loonies who create stuff like "BorderJacks").

But, honestly, as a family pet, A Portie, Irish Water Spaniel, Standard Poodle, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, or Xoloitzcuintli would be far better than a Doodle.
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  #43  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
That's the issue, though. They AREN'T filling a niche. Not really. People buy these because they want to have the latest thing.
Wow, no prejudice there. Cites please? In any case, if it's true for mixes then I'd bet every last penny it's true for breeds as well. (Not the 'latest' but the 'fashionable' thing.)
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  #44  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:28 PM
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Honestly, at the shows (and particularly specialties, where I see a cross section of performance and conformation dogs), there are VERY few american show line dogs I'd trust in my home. I sometimes take my 5yo old son to the shows and while I keep a close eye on him around any dogs there, I tend to be more wary of the breed dogs than the performance dogs. Some of this is likely due to the amount of training that the performance dogs receive in comparison to the conformation dogs, but the basic, inborn temperament of a pretty high percentage of the breed ring dogs I see is just plain flighty and nervous. Not something I want in my family. Of course there ARE stable conformation dogs out there, it just seems that an awfully high percentage of them are just plain unstable, IME. Honestly, for a family dog, I would strongly consider either (a) a less structurally extreme American show line dog whose parents and other family members I was able to meet and gauge the temperament of; (b) a performance line dog - by this I mean dogs who do tracking, herding, agility, obedience, and the like, NOT a working line dog who does Schutzhund work, they're great at what they do but not appropriate for the average family; or (c) a carefully screened rescue dog, this means screening the rescue as well as the dog as there are some out there that just want to place dogs and don't really do the matching and evaluations that they should. My personal preference is (b), these dogs tend to be the most structurally sound and have even temperaments (a broad generalization, you would still want to meet the parents, make sure health clearances are done, etc.) but they are hard to find. Most rescue GSDs, from what I have seen, tend to have a more moderate build than the breed ring dogs and more moderate temperaments to match. Obviously much research is needed before choosing a rescue dog and you do potentially run a higher risk of hip dysplasia, DM, etc., but it is all a matter of weighing risks and benefits of any of the choices. I love the GSD breed but honestly hate what has been done to it, though it seems like things are beginning to go in the right direction, at least better than they were 10-20 years ago, though we still have a long way to go.
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  #45  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:34 PM
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I agree with basically everything StillandSilent said. I don't even know if we should be continuing the practice of breeding at all. I'm willing to live with it but I don't see any problem with having mixes or even mutts. Mutts should probably be the norm.
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  #46  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Wow, no prejudice there. Cites please? In any case, if it's true for mixes then I'd bet every last penny it's true for breeds as well. (Not the 'latest' but the 'fashionable' thing.)
In some cases, yes. This is why responsible breeders and breed rescues dread their breed of choice being featured in a movie, tv series, etc. Dalmatians following "101 Dalmatians", Jack Russell Terriers when Frasier was popular, etc. No matter what breed, mix, rescue, whatever, people are looking for, they need to do their homework - and sadly for all involved, that doesn't always happen in any category.
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  #47  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:37 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Wow, no prejudice there. Cites please?
Actually, I will amend that a bit. They buy them because they are ignorant and choose to accept the lies the doodle breeders tell. Honestly, speak to a few Doodle owners and ask them why they chose to purchase the dog. In pretty much every case, you will hear them bleat out the falsities like "Oh, we needed a hypoallergenic dog" although many doodles aren't hypoallergenic or "Oh, they are just so cute and fluffy!" even though their appearances vary widely and can't be predicted when they are puppies. Or, even better "We wanted a dog with the coat of a poodle but the brains of a lab." I don't even know WHERE to begin with that one.

They haven't actually done the research. They've listened to the

Quote:
In any case, if it's true for mixes then I'd bet every last penny it's true for breeds as well. (Not the 'latest' but the 'fashionable' thing.)
Of course it is. That's beside the point.
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  #48  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:40 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I agree with basically everything StillandSilent said. I don't even know if we should be continuing the practice of breeding at all. I'm willing to live with it but I don't see any problem with having mixes or even mutts. Mutts should probably be the norm.
Great. So then no more guide dogs for the blind, no more military or police dogs, no more dogs suited for apartment living, no more herding or hunting dogs, no more predictable temperaments or sizes or personalities, etc., etc.

I have no issue with mutts. I've met some GREAT mutts. But there is a reason to continue breeds.
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  #49  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Or, even better "We wanted a dog with the coat of a poodle but the brains of a lab." I don't even know WHERE to begin with that one.
I saw someone posted on FB today a picture of what looked like a tiny husky - the caption said it was a husky/pomeranian cross that would look like a husky but stay the size of a pomeranian. I don't know who these geneticist geniuses are who can take individual genes from the parents and control which one contributes the hair color, which controls the size, etc., but if these fictional people existed, I have no doubt they could have the world rid of genetic diseases in one generation. Because if the resources are there to do that just to create a cute puppy, surely we can do it to eliminate genes that cause cancer, right? Sometimes I want to smack people in the head.

It reminds me of that old joke where the Nobel prize winner was asked to donate sperm to create a child with a supermodel. "The child will have your brains and her good looks," he was told. "Perhaps," he replied, "but what if the child gets my looks and her IQ?"
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  #50  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:49 PM
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I'm very close to someone who lives with one. (I'm his homunculus. Or he's mine. I get those mixed up...) Plus I know many. The reasons they chose their dogs - and I mean every last one I have ever met - had nothing at all to do with the specific mix and everything to do with the kind of pet they wanted (or the specific animal they found). When people ask the breeds they have to stop and think for a minute. For most of us, the doodle name is nothing but a silly name. That's just my own experience.

I'm sure there are people who do buy for fashion but I've met uncountable purebred owners who did and have no reason in this world to have that breathtakingly beautiful shepherd. They're far far more likely to become irresponsible breeders. Many of them think they have an investment, not a dog. I could go on but people who promote the ownership of purebreds over mixed breeds because mixed ones are the "latest fashion" need to step back and see how ridiculous and hypocritical that claim looks to a rational person.
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  #51  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:53 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
he reasons they chose their dogs - and I mean every last one I have ever met - had nothing at all to do with the specific mix and everything to do with the kind of pet they wanted (or the specific animal they found).
If they adopted an adult, that would make sense. If they purchased a puppy, it makes no sense, as you can't actually predict much about what the puppy will mature into, so they can't actually say if the dog will turn out to be "the kind of pet they wanted" or the exact opposite.
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  #52  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:54 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by amorrison50 View Post
I saw someone posted on FB today a picture of what looked like a tiny husky - the caption said it was a husky/pomeranian cross that would look like a husky but stay the size of a pomeranian.
Ah, yes. The "Pomsky." Headdesk.
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  #53  
Old 12 February 2014, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Great. So then no more guide dogs for the blind, no more military or police dogs, no more dogs suited for apartment living, no more herding or hunting dogs, no more predictable temperaments or sizes or personalities, etc., etc.
I simply don't believe the claim that mutts can't do those jobs. But it doesn't matter. I'm OK with people breeding purebreds. (That is, I've come to terms with it. We use their species in an ethically questionable way and we have for many thousands of years. It's not nearly as bad as we treat the other species we use so...) But the idea that mixing two of them is somehow wrong is just superstition and hypocrisy.
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  #54  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by amorrison50 View Post
the caption said it was a husky/pomeranian cross that would look like a husky but stay the size of a pomeranian.
That's not good. But the exact same miscommunication happens with purebreds all the time. Will my rottweiler be anything like the rotty across the street? The answer is maybe sort of but don't expect it. Your dog is going to be a unique individual. Mixed breed owners need to be responsibly informed but that's no different than any other potential dog owner.
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  #55  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:03 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I simply don't believe the claim that mutts can't do those jobs.
Sure. You could start with 100 mutt puppies and waste a ton of time and get perhaps two who could, say, serve as military dogs. But why would you create that many dogs when you can get four or five suitable dogs out of a litter of 10? What are you going to do with all the puppies that don't pan out?

Quote:
But the idea that mixing two of them is somehow wrong is just superstition and hypocrisy.
I gave circumstances in which I absolutely accept mixing breeds. But it had better be for a darned good reason, just like any other breeding.
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  #56  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:05 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
That's not good. But the exact same miscommunication happens with purebreds all the time. Will my rottweiler be anything like the rotty across the street? The answer is maybe sort of but don't expect it. Your dog is going to be a unique individual.
If you are dealing with good breeders, you can, pretty much, predict the final product. Shoot, you can do that within most breeds that haven't been entirely overcome by BYBs and millers.

If I take in a Collie as a foster, I can, with a high degree of accuracy, predict that dog's instincts and behaviors, even in cases where abuse or neglect occurred. The same simply does not hold true for mixes and mutts.
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  #57  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
That's not good. But the exact same miscommunication happens with purebreds all the time. Will my rottweiler be anything like the rotty across the street? The answer is maybe sort of but don't expect it. Your dog is going to be a unique individual. Mixed breed owners need to be responsibly informed but that's no different than any other potential dog owner.
And that is why I, and many other breeders, do not let the buyers pick their own puppies. When you get a puppy from a good breeder it is chosen for you - we spend hours upon hours with the puppies from birth so when you say you want a puppy with specific traits, that is what you will get. You can, and should, expect it.
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  #58  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:11 PM
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Sure. Breeding is always for good reason. Like a bulldog: bred to fight bulls. Literally rip their noses off. That's terrific. Tell us more about all those "darned good reasons" in history. How many of them are needed today? Mousers, sled pullers, fighters and hunters... How ethical was it to use the species in that way to begin with? If there weren't a history of thousands of years, doing it today would be illegal. "You want to breed a special breed of jackal so that it can hunt lions? What kind of a psychotic nut are you?"

I don't really care. I'm just as emotional as most humans when it comes to breeds. I have known some very special purebred dogs and when I see one of their breed it makes me happy. I'm OK with breeding. But when breedists get on their high purebred horses I just go "wth?"
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  #59  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:15 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Breeding is always for good reason
I think the entire point of that is that breeding is often done for bad reasons. And, yes, mousers, hunters, herders, workers, and sled dogs are still needed in our society, as are assistance dogs, military dogs, etc. I see nothing whatsoever unethical about that.
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  #60  
Old 12 February 2014, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
I see nothing whatsoever unethical about that.
Maybe so. I don't see any evidence for that. It doesn't matter. As I said, I'm OK with it. You already won that argument 8000 years ago. But when you start calling out mixed-breed owners for things purebred owners have been doing all those millennia and still do at least as much if not more than mixed-breed owners, it makes me think we're talking about the histories of different planets.
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