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  #21  
Old 27 April 2018, 06:58 PM
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Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
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I was actually deliberately trying to pick examples with class, religious, and race aspects (Sikh men wear turbans).

My father was a college professor. He had a good friend, also a college professor, who tended to wear overalls on the weekends. The friend was also a hunter and fisherman. On his way back from a fishing trip once he stopped in to a men's wear store to look for a new suit. The salesman came up to him and asked him to leave, saying "you probably can't afford the clothes we sell."

Judging people by what they wear often back-fires, even when it isn't racist (the friend in the story above was a white southern gentleman).

Seaboe
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  #22  
Old 27 April 2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
If you work as a ditch digger, or any other poorly compensated manual labor job, you are unlikely to wear collared shirts at work, and there is a decent shot that you don't own a collared shirt at all.
...
When you also add in requirements for pants - a construction worker might only wear denim, but the club asks for dress slacks - and shoes, well, it's getting quite good at weeding out the poors.
I would think such a nightclub's prices would do a much better job of that than would dress code requirements that could be satisfied by a pretty cheap trip to any department or discount store like Goodwill. I've been to places where the cheapest drink was $15 and their dress codes weren't that strict. If the dress code is cheaper than a couple of drinks and an appetizer, I'm not sure it is the dress code "weeding out the poors".
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  #23  
Old 27 April 2018, 08:43 PM
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I've been to places where the cheapest drinks are the $0.75 8 ounce draft beers that had a collared shirt dress code. I've been to a country bar, where drinks were typically $2-$3, that had a collared shirt dress code for men and skirts or dresses for women. A whole lot of cowboys with collared cowboy shirts.
Sure, if the place itself is expensive, then it will keep out poor people just fine without a dress code. But what about if a relatively poor couple saves up for a big anniversary to go to a nice steakhouse. They wear their best clothes - the man wears his church shirt and slacks and tie. But the restaurant stops him, because they require a jacket in addition. And the dress code has kept out the undesirables. This has absolutely happened - it may not be something that happens often, but it has happened. And what purpose is served by such a rule? Are others in the restaurant going to be offended that someone somewhere else in the restaurant doesn't have a suit jacket on?
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  #24  
Old 27 April 2018, 09:45 PM
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I've been to a lot of really nice, expensive restaurants that didn't have such restrictive dress codes. I'm not sure what the problem is if some places have them.
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  #25  
Old 27 April 2018, 11:37 PM
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Yeah, the correlation between price and dress code is an extremely loose one with lots of exceptions. And the cost of an outfit that would satisfy the dress code is typically comparable to (or less than) the meal itself, and lasts much longer. If you can't afford the dress code, you really can't afford the food, so the dress code doesn't serve the purpose of filtering out clients on that basis. I've never seen a dress code that would distinguish between expensive designer clothes and a clean, decent quality jacket or dress that you could get at a thrift store. And actually rich people often aren't as flashy as they could afford to be in how they dress, so they're as prone as anyone else to show up a little on the underdressed side or wearing an article of clothing that they've had for ages.

Around here, rich people prefer to dress comfortably most of the time, even at expensive restaurants. Some people dress up for special occasions or because they feel like it, but if they expect everyone else to also dress up they're likely to be disappointed. The places that I've seen that consistently tend to be sticklers for dress codes are country clubs. But there are all kinds of layers of exclusivity keeping out the poors at those types of clubs, whether they can afford the clothing is the last thing on anyone's mind.
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  #26  
Old 27 April 2018, 11:57 PM
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Funny story about judging people by their dress - After retirement, my father volunteered at a homeless shelter. He had a pickup and was reasonably fit. A local business donated some furniture so my father went to pick it up with his truck and a helper from the shelter. On of the managers met my father and was addressing him casually by first name only apparently assuming my father was also a resident of the shelter. That night there was a meeting of the symphony board of directors which my father was on. The same manager was also at this meeting. Upon meeting my father now dressed in suit and tie, the manager said, "Mr. Miller you look familiar. Have we met?" To which my father told "Yes, this afternoon." Hopefully said manager learned a lesson.
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  #27  
Old 28 April 2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
So, if you ask everyone who comes to wear a collared shirt, it is certainly not asking too much for the clientele that they would most want - white people in well paying jobs - but it might be a stretch for others. When you also add in requirements for pants - a construction worker might only wear denim, but the club asks for dress slacks - and shoes, well, it's getting quite good at weeding out the poors.
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Around here, rich people prefer to dress comfortably most of the time, even at expensive restaurants. Some people dress up for special occasions or because they feel like it, but if they expect everyone else to also dress up they're likely to be disappointed.
Many of my coworkers wear non-collared shirts, even t-shirts, and jean, now knee-length shorts to work. Trust me, they can certainly afford shirts with collars and other trousers, but why bother, if they don't have to? My dad goes to the thrift store and proudly wears a Hillfiger shirt which cost him all of 5 bucks, so a dress code won't block him from entering a restaurant or club.

Many restaurants here don't have dress codes, and it's easy to spend $$$ for lunch and dinner. They use prices to discriminate, not dress codes.

And it seems the richer someone is, the less likely they follow any sort of formal dress code. Why bother having money if you can't be comfortable? Neat, clean and having the money to pay the bill should be worth more than a collar.
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  #28  
Old 28 April 2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
I've been to a lot of really nice, expensive restaurants that didn't have such restrictive dress codes. I'm not sure what the problem is if some places have them.
Tucson has very few restaurants with more than casual as its dress code; if you demand suits, stockings, etc. when it's 112 out you're not going to get a lot of business. I was at one of the nicer steakhouses here a few years ago in July and they had zero problems seating a bunch of guys wearing shorts and tee-shirts in a prominent area.
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  #29  
Old 28 April 2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Funny story about judging people by their dress - After retirement, my father volunteered at a homeless shelter. He had a pickup and was reasonably fit. A local business donated some furniture so my father went to pick it up with his truck and a helper from the shelter. On of the managers met my father and was addressing him casually by first name only apparently assuming my father was also a resident of the shelter. That night there was a meeting of the symphony board of directors which my father was on. The same manager was also at this meeting. Upon meeting my father now dressed in suit and tie, the manager said, "Mr. Miller you look familiar. Have we met?" To which my father told "Yes, this afternoon." Hopefully said manager learned a lesson.
My dad, before he retired, was the CEO of a major Canadian company. He went very gladly from the full suit and tie everyday shtick to climbing into sweat pants or jeans every day. He had a number of experiences of being judged by the clothes he was wearing when he would go into stores to make purchases. One time in particular the sales people in a flooring store wouldn't give him the time of day when he wanted to get new hardwood for the house. I was with him at the time and it was interesting to see how snotty they all were and how you could tell no one wanted to be the one to deal with the guy in sweat pants who was probably just wasting their time. Went to their competitor and made some else's day with a very healthy commission because they could see past the attire and treated my Dad like the potential customer he actually was!
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  #30  
Old 28 April 2018, 03:36 PM
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I think there's a significant East coast/West coast split on dress codes and being judged more on clothing. The West coast is much more casual.

I also think dress codes are meant to keep out poor and "lower class" people in a more subtle way than because they can't afford formal attire. It's a way of making people feel unwelcome, or telegraphing that it caters to a certain class of clientele. It's meant to keep out the "riff-raff."

I just thought I'd mention too that there's been a lot of poor reporting and discussions, even on legal oriented sites, of what legal principles apply. The claims were discrimination in public accommodations claims based on NY and NYC laws. Those laws don't cover discrimination based on political views or affiliation. So the complaint tried to shoehorn the claims into discrimination based on "creed." Which it is not, so that is why it got tossed. There was also an intentional infliction of emotional distress claim. That requires outrageous conduct that causes severe harm, which the allegations did not rise to.

The judge was applying the law that exists, as written, and not making their own call on what ought to be protected or not. Public accommodations laws are statutory law. The protections are whatever lawmakers chose.
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  #31  
Old 28 April 2018, 03:43 PM
Bobcat Warrior Bobcat Warrior is online now
 
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Sue:

My Dad was an auto dealer (that is, the franchise was actually in his name). There were quite a few times an area farmer would arrive at the dealership in the early evening obviously after having spent the day plowing a field or harvesting a crop. The sales staff would generally find other things to do, rather than waste time with someone who probably couldn't afford the cars my Dad carried. Dad knew enough about people to know you cannot judge people on first impressions of appearances. Quite a few times Dad would end up selling the car the customer wanted, and the customer didn't want to finance, but would pull out a wad of bills and pay cash.

BW
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  #32  
Old 28 April 2018, 05:12 PM
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BW:

There's a very old story that's somewhat relevant to that one. (It's old enough that I need to update amounts from when I first heard it, though the amounts I'm picking now are somewhat random.)

Person with fancy car goes out driving in the country in bad weather and winds up stuck in a ditch.

Farmer comes along with a largish tractor, stops, and offers to pull him out.

Car driver says 'I don't want you hooking your grubby tractor onto my $60,000 car!'

Farmer says, 'OK, I won't hook my $150,000 tractor onto your $60,000 car' and drives away.
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  #33  
Old 28 April 2018, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I also think dress codes are meant to keep out poor and "lower class" people in a more subtle way than because they can't afford formal attire. It's a way of making people feel unwelcome, or telegraphing that it caters to a certain class of clientele. It's meant to keep out the "riff-raff."
I'd agree with you that part of it is to keep out the "riff-raff," and indeed I've heard that term used, but I really don't think it's meant to keep people out just based on financial or social class, but to keep out the troublemakers.

The person that might cause trouble might be discouraged from attending. That person might think, "I'm not going to some high-falutin' place where there's a dress code!"

And also, as I said in the earlier post, it puts attendees on notice that the other people here are ladies and gentlemen, and this is the kind of place where bad conduct won't be welcome. The "telegraphing" here may be that the place caters to *decent* people, not necessarily well-to-do or higher class. In fact, at the club I mentioned earlier, not everyone there was well-off or even "professional."

I also wouldn't say it's done maliciously to make lower-class people feel unwelcome. Why would an establishment do that; their money is as good as anyone else's.

Thanks.

Bill
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  #34  
Old 28 April 2018, 05:59 PM
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The most common request I see in most establishments is that people are expected to wear shoes and shirts. If that's telegraphing that only a certain class of people are welcome, well, sorry but I am not seeing a problem with that and I think it is pretty unlikely that the establishment is assuming that poorer people are unlikely to have shoes and/or shirts!
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  #35  
Old 28 April 2018, 06:27 PM
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I'd agree with you that part of it is to keep out the "riff-raff," and indeed I've heard that term used, but I really don't think it's meant to keep people out just based on financial or social class, but to keep out the troublemakers.
I haven't noticed, personally, that the likelihood of troublemaking is correlated with whether the troublemakers are wearing collared shirts.

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I also wouldn't say it's done maliciously to make lower-class people feel unwelcome. Why would an establishment do that; their money is as good as anyone else's.
Because they think that "upper"-class people are attracted to places where they won't have to be in the presence of "lower"-class people (except of course those "lower"-class people who are waiting on tables), and that therefore they think they'll attract more clients who will buy the more expensive dishes, wines, etc. if the place has a reputation for mostly having rich people in it.

That attitude is of course not true of all people who have money; and it's possible that it's not even true of a specific restaurant that has a dress code. Some people like to get dressed up and go out to places where other people are dressed up, and part of their fun in dressing up is spoiled if the people at the next table are likely to be wearing grubby tshirts and shorts; and sometimes that really is the only thing that's going on. But I think you may not be hearing a dog whistle here which I think I am hearing, though it's not necessarily one about race.

It's true that one can buy dressy clothes at second hand shops for not much money. It's also true that finding such clothes that come anywhere near fitting can take a considerable chunk of one's time. Many people who are short on money are also very short on time.

-- Sue, I don't think anybody's talking about the sort of dress code that requires shoes and shirts as being potentially discriminatory; I think people are talking about the sort of dress code that says tie worn with a shirt designed to take one, jacket over the shirt, suit slacks or dressier and not jeans or cargo pants; dresses or pants suits or fancier for women.
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  #36  
Old 28 April 2018, 07:08 PM
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I haven't noticed, personally, that the likelihood of troublemaking is correlated with whether the troublemakers are wearing collared shirts.
I doubt collared shirts are going to make a difference and I suspect really high end establishments probably aren't all that worried about troublemakers. It's places like nightclubs, casinos and bars that might be tempted to impose a dress code to cut down on potential troublemakers. Since my idea of a wild night out is Red Lobster I will defer to others as to whether dress codes would actually make any difference if a place has been having problems and wants to find a way to minimize them.
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  #37  
Old 28 April 2018, 07:34 PM
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I don't understand what that sort of dress code is supposed to have to do with troublemaking in the first place: other than possibly as code for 'we don't want that sort in here'.

People in all sorts of clothes get drunk and cause trouble.

People in all sorts of clothes harass waitstaff.

People in all sorts of clothes get loud and annoy the people at nearby tables. Especially since nearly everybody got cell phones.

If a place has been having problems with people who dress in, say, profane tshirts or gang signs, I suppose they might think it works better to say they have to wear collared shirts with ties and jackets than to say 'no profane tshirts or gang signs'. But again I doubt there's any actual correlation of collared shirts with troublemaking at night clubs, restaurants, or wherever.

I'd be interested to see any statistics anybody's got on the issue.

-- again, if the issue is 'some people want to dine out in a fancy ambience and think it ruins the ambience if other diners aren't dressed for it': I recognize that this is sometimes what's going on, and I even think that's reasonable. It's having the issue put in the form of 'we're going to make people dress up because dressed up people are less likely to be troublemakers' that bothers me. (Note: ' ' not meant to imply direct quotes; I just can't think right now how better to phrase this paragraph.)
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  #38  
Old 28 April 2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's having the issue put in the form of 'we're going to make people dress up because dressed up people are less likely to be troublemakers' that bothers me. (Note: ' ' not meant to imply direct quotes; I just can't think right now how better to phrase this paragraph.)
I hear this about airplane travel too - the idea being that when people dressed up to travel that you didn't hear about people behaving badly on planes. As if dressing well must equal behaving well. I don't know. I think if it's true that everyone behaved nicely on planes in the "olden days" there was a lot more going on than that men wore suits and women wore dresses with no cleavage.
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  #39  
Old 28 April 2018, 08:52 PM
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Sue, I share your suspicions about that.

'When people dressed up to travel' was pretty much mid-1960's and earlier. You're right, a whole lot of things were different -- and one that jumps out at me is that, if people behaved badly on a plane in, say, 1955, anybody who wasn't on the plane with them was very unlikely to hear about it. There wasn't any social media, of course; and unless the plane crashed because of the misbehavior, it's unlikely that even local news would have bothered carrying such stories.

And a smaller percentage of people travelled on planes at all at the time, especially with any frequency; so for a lot of people, their idea of how people behaved on planes wouldn't have been based on any personal experience, but on airline ads and movies and a bit of early television; which means that even if it was fairly common for people to behave badly on planes in 1955, many people wouldn't know it.

But now, if one person out of twenty thousand behaves badly on a plane, the story may be all over the place.
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  #40  
Old 29 April 2018, 04:53 PM
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Back to this:

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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
I doubt collared shirts are going to make a difference and I suspect really high end establishments probably aren't all that worried about troublemakers. It's places like nightclubs, casinos and bars that might be tempted to impose a dress code to cut down on potential troublemakers. Since my idea of a wild night out is Red Lobster I will defer to others as to whether dress codes would actually make any difference if a place has been having problems and wants to find a way to minimize them.
Just to clarify, in my earlier posts I was focusing on nightclubs (and the like) rather than restaurants.

I'd agree that at places that are basically restaurants rather than nightclubs or bars, troublemakers aren't a big issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
If a place has been having problems with people who dress in, say, profane tshirts or gang signs, I suppose they might think it works better to say they have to wear collared shirts with ties and jackets than to say 'no profane tshirts or gang signs'. But again I doubt there's any actual correlation of collared shirts with troublemaking at night clubs, restaurants, or wherever.

I'd be interested to see any statistics anybody's got on the issue.
Not actually statistics, but my cousin (post #14) has been in the biz for years. He has a dress code at his events, and it's posted and enforced consistently.

However, he's sometimes hosted events at hotels where part of his deal with the hotel is that paid hotel guests can be admitted to his event whether they obey the dress code or not. So there might be two kinds of patrons: those who paid to attend his event, who obey the dress code, and paid hotel guests, who can dress any way they want. He claims that when he's had to speak to somebody about misconduct it's usually been someone in the second group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
-- again, if the issue is 'some people want to dine out in a fancy ambience and think it ruins the ambience if other diners aren't dressed for it': I recognize that this is sometimes what's going on, and I even think that's reasonable. It's having the issue put in the form of 'we're going to make people dress up because dressed up people are less likely to be troublemakers' that bothers me. (Note: ' ' not meant to imply direct quotes; I just can't think right now how better to phrase this paragraph.)
I've (rarely) been to high-end restaurants, and I can see how the dress code would fit in with the overall ambience.

If it's a place where patrons are expected to dress up, it might be a place which is relatively quiet, without loud conversations at other tables; where you might get more attentive service; maybe the food might be a cut above somewhere else. Patrons might associate a jacket-and-tie place with some of these characteristics or more. It's not just the joy of thinking you're better than low-class people who can't afford to eat there.

I'd agree; it should be entirely the establishment's call.

Thanks.

Bill
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