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  #201  
Old 20 June 2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Part of what was going on when Nash wrote that was the assumption that women were likely to feel they ought to say no even when they actually did want to have sex -- the inhibition being overcome by the booze could be seen as the social inhibition against women admitting they wanted sex, rather than there being any actual desire not to do so to overcome.
This is an important point, IMO. It's the reason I think that "Baby it's cold outside," unfortunate as it sounds now, was not "rapey" in intent.
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  #202  
Old 20 June 2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
IDK whether Ogden Nash meant it that way, but I've certainly heard it quoted by people who seemed to me be joking about getting a woman drunk so she'd have sex.
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
That's about the only context I've ever heard it used in.
You folks know some interesting people: sophisticated enough to quote Ogden Nash, crude enough to suggest date rape.
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  #203  
Old 20 June 2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's borderline, IMO, if one person is deliberately supplying liquor in the hope of getting the other person to consent to something the supplier thinks they're unlikely to consent to if sober.
Of course. Not even borderline if one is trying to get the other person drunk.

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(Drinking with somebody one thinks will consent if sober is a different thing -- as, of course, is drinking with somebody one doesn't intend to have sex with, at least not then.) Not, as you say, rape if the second person's not too drunk to consent and if a lack of consent is respected; but nevertheless not good behavior.
I think it is still very common, and perfectly OK, for people who are dating but not yet having sex to go out for drinks. As long as no one is intending to somehow coerce the other person into drinking more than they want to and then have sex, and as long as neither party is too drunk to consent--or close enough to that line to cause doubt, if they do have sex, I don't see a mutual decision to have drinks as inherently any kind of bad behavior. Even if they wind up having sex afterward.

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Part of what was going on when Nash wrote that was the assumption that women were likely to feel they ought to say no even when they actually did want to have sex -- the inhibition being overcome by the booze could be seen as the social inhibition against women admitting they wanted sex, rather than there being any actual desire not to do so to overcome.
Yes, and still now, there are the same type, if not degree, of social and "moral" inhibitions, as well as personal inhibitions, all of which a person might actively want to overcome. Alcohol has been referred to as a social lubricant, and people may actually choose to use it that way for themselves, rather than nefariously for other people. In that sense, Nash's verse doesn't necessarily refer to rape, which was my point in my earlier post.

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Again, I'm not accusing Nash of anything; I don't actually know anything about his personal behavior. I'm just pointing out that the social attitude towards the seriousness of such things was much different. I clearly remember routinely reading cartoons and jokes in publications as mainstream and "family-friendly" as the Reader's Digest in which male bosses chased their female secretaries around the office, the secretaries keeping the desk between them to avoid being, at a minimum, groped. The situation was supposed to be seen as funny -- and as normal behavior: that is, most people would probably have agreed that the boss was behaving badly, but would also have felt that a lot of bosses did behave like that and the secretaries just had to put up with it.
That is a thing that has changed in my lifetime. The chasing a secretary around the desk image was common in the Sunday comics at least through the 80s, I think. (Pretty sure Dagwood's boss did it in Blondie). Widespread recognition of sex with a very intoxicated person as rape is also a development during my lifetime, and I would say it is relatively recent.

ETA: Now that I've gone back and looked at what I quoted, I see that it says "get her drunk." That version is one end of the spectrum of how I understand it, with the other end of the spectrum being what I went on to describe, of two people deciding to have drinks as a way of voluntarily lowering their own inhibitions--on the social lubricant/liquid courage theory.

I can see that my previous post was at best confusing and at worst, well, not a statement that I would want anything to do with. Getting someone drunk in order to have sex with them when you don't think they would otherwise consent is more than just "rapey."

Last edited by erwins; 20 June 2017 at 07:29 PM.
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  #204  
Old 20 June 2017, 07:45 PM
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The first time I saw the chasing-the-secretary trope portrayed as negative was in the movie Nine to Five -- what was that, 1980? Dabney Coleman tried it one time too many and Dolly Parton threatened to get her gun from her purse and "turn you from a rooster to a hen with one shot."
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  #205  
Old 21 June 2017, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The first time I saw the chasing-the-secretary trope portrayed as negative was in the movie Nine to Five -- what was that, 1980? Dabney Coleman tried it one time too many and Dolly Parton threatened to get her gun from her purse and "turn you from a rooster to a hen with one shot."
I think it had negative connotations long before then - it just wasn't considered very "rapey". I think the 50s/60s mindset was such that the boss making advances toward the secretary was tolerable if not truly acceptable, but the girl - er, woman - should have the right to refuse. And the boss had the right to keep trying, so long as it didn't occupy every working moment. In fact, I think a lot of the courtship and/or seduction mores of the time were based on this dynamic. Of course if the woman did agree, she ran the danger of being labeled a slut.

For some reason I think of the clip below, "He Takes Me Off His Income Tax" from the stage show New Faces of 1952. The song, performed by a young lady who introduced the musical numbers, was constantly interrupted throughout the show.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icbW0Zhynd0
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  #206  
Old 21 June 2017, 01:12 PM
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The chasing thing was played for humor in popular culture. Maybe people saw it more negatively in IRL, but if so I haven't seen the evidence.
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  #207  
Old 21 June 2017, 09:39 PM
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Default I believe Bill Cosby

It’s time to start believing men who say they drug or sexually assault women.

https://www.vox.com/2017/6/17/158244...-jury-mistrial
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  #208  
Old 23 June 2017, 02:59 AM
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Bill Cosby, Fresh From Trial, Plans Talks on Avoiding Assault Accusations

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Bill Cosby is planning a series of town hall meetings this summer to educate people, including young athletes and married men, on how to avoid accusations of sexual assault, two of his representatives said Wednesday.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I think one of the suggestions he should offer is "Don't actually commit sexual assault."
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  #209  
Old 23 June 2017, 04:19 AM
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Also don't drug people.
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  #210  
Old 23 June 2017, 07:10 AM
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Bonsai Kitten Continuing the hijack....

One of the many things I enjoy about the ULRP message board is all the non urban legend things I have learned. For example,
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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
I always just took it to be that candy is fine, but liquor is a better bet for having a good time. I never knew the name of the poem, so that may explain it, although I don't know that the name necessarily makes it about getting someone in bed (nefariously or otherwise).
I've been a fan of Ogden Nash since I was a kid but the interpretation of the "Candy is dandy" poem discussed in this thread never occurred to me. My original interpretation was that it's for someone who is alone and feeling depressed who first eats candy to feel better but switches to liquor because it is, indeed, quicker.
Quote:
"Reflections on Ice Breaking" could be just a matter of when people first meet and need something to get conversation flowing, candy works but liquor will get people loosened up faster.
Similarly, I interpreted icebreaking here as in starting a conversation with someone but nothing sexual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
It's the reason I think that "Baby it's cold outside," unfortunate as it sounds now, was not "rapey" in intent.
And we've had many interesting discussions of the importance of (or lack thereof) author's intent.

And speaking of learning new things here,

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
Prior to this thread I had never heard of Ms. de Luce before. What is this? This looks like a television show but the only thing I can find on IMDb is the 1954 movie New Faces. Is this a video of the stage play?

Brian

Last edited by BrianB; 23 June 2017 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Added the last sentence.
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  #211  
Old 23 June 2017, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
What is this? This looks like a television show but the only thing I can find on IMDb is the 1954 movie New Faces. Is this a video of the stage play?
The caption on the video says it's from a 1960 TV adaptation. I did a little poking around, and it looks like it's "Highlights of New Faces", an episode of the TV show "Play of the Week", which ran on the small NTA Film Network - a TV network distributing its programs via film instead of cable.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0675381/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
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  #212  
Old 23 June 2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
And we've had many interesting discussions of the importance of (or lack thereof) author's intent.
Which is why I didn't say the song is not rapey. And said nothing about its suitability for continued exposure.

It really goes beyond intent, though: IMO, the interpretations of people who heard the song when it was first written (and for decades afterward) would have been that the woman was restrained by social inhibitions, not by her wish not to have to sex with the man.
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  #213  
Old 23 June 2017, 04:39 PM
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People might have viewed it as more than just social inhibitions, too. It could be viewed as a struggle to be "good" vs the temptation to do something "bad." Not just in social terms, but in religious and moral terms as well--what kind of "girl" will she be. What is her character, etc. Those are not overt, but I think sex was wrapped up in all of those things then, so much so that they went without saying.

Of course it still is wrapped up in those things, but it's at least possible to pull them apart and talk about them, to some degree.
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  #214  
Old 23 June 2017, 06:17 PM
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I do know that in discussions I had as late as 1990 or so, I was assured (by both men and women) that, due to the way they're socialized, women never say yes to a sexual proposition (at least for a first encounter) , and that the "correct" approach is basically just to move on forward until they clearly say "no" (or otherwise make it clear you should stop).

This led me to believe that at least some cases of rape occurred where the perpetrator honestly believed he had tacit consent, and just had "read" the signs wrong. I don't know if I believe that any more, but I find the whole thing confusing and frustrating.

My "strategy" thus become "wait for to make the first move" -- which did actually work, occasionally, back when I knew some unattached women who apparently did not find me unattractive. But that's been a while.

I do hope things have changed, but obviously we're a long way from a world where everyone agrees on what the rules are and/or should be.
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  #215  
Old 23 June 2017, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
Bill Cosby, Fresh From Trial, Plans Talks on Avoiding Assault Accusations



I don't claim to be an expert, but I think one of the suggestions he should offer is "Don't actually commit sexual assault."
From the statement he offered, it's more about how to avoid being on the receiving end of an accusation that actually not committing it.

So he would probably suggest only giving them drugs when there are no witness, or making sure that everyone in the room is aware that you were just being friendly and not rapey...by giving them large sums of money to testify on your behalf.
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  #216  
Old 24 June 2017, 06:08 AM
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Cosby juror says Andrea Constad should have "dressed properly."

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The male juror who said Andrea Constand should have been "dressed properly" when she visited Bill Cosby's house got a dressing down by two of the comedian's other accusers Friday.

Accusers Linda Kirkpatrick and Lili Bernard attended Cosby's sexual assault trial in suburban Philadelphia this month and said they were deeply distressed by the juror's comments to the Philadelphia Enquirer.

"People ask, 'Why don't victims come forward sooner?' Well, it's because of comments like this. Because we know we'll be blamed," Kirkpatrick, 60, told the Daily News.

"This is the type of archaic thinking that says a wife can't be raped, a prostitute can't be raped, a stripper can't be raped,” she added. “They can be."
I have nothing to say that the filters would allow.
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  #217  
Old 24 June 2017, 10:59 PM
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Oh I understand completely, Crocoduck. I'm thinking of a meme I saw on Facebook. Can't remember the exact wording, but it basically said, "When you tell women to not go out at night, drink alcohol, or wear skimpy clothing to avoid being raped, you're basically saying, 'Make sure he rapes some other girl instead.'"
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  #218  
Old 25 June 2017, 05:03 AM
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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...-spokesman-say

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Less than a week after a judge declared a mistrial in the sexual assault case against Bill Cosby, the comedian's representatives say he intends to host a series of town halls about sexual assault and the legal system.

Cosby spokesman Andrew Wyatt told the TV show Good Day Alabama that the town halls could start as soon as next month and noted that the issues were particularly important for young athletes.
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