snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > Non-UL Chat > Business Bytes

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09 August 2018, 10:03 PM
E. Q. Taft's Avatar
E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
Join Date: 30 July 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,292
Driver New York’s Uber Cap Is Good News for Basically Everyone

Three years ago, when the New York mayor attempted to cap the number of Uber vehicles in New York City, the Democrat was broken and humiliated by Uber’s ruthless PR campaign. At the time, the city made the case that Uber cars were responsible for Manhattan traffic having slowed to the pace of molasses. Uber deftly countered that its drivers had smashed the transportation redlining caused by the city’s limit on yellow cabs, bringing easy mobility to communities of color.

This week, de Blasio got his cap—or at least a one-year freeze on new licenses for the ride-hail companies, together with a minimum wage for drivers. This time, proponents of the bill didn’t focus on traffic, but on equity. The result is a first-of-its-kind wage floor for gig-economy workers, and you can bet it will be a talking point for de Blasio as he makes the case for New York as the country’s leading lab of progressive policy.

https://slate.com/business/2018/08/n...-everyone.html
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09 August 2018, 10:23 PM
SatansHobbit's Avatar
SatansHobbit SatansHobbit is offline
 
Join Date: 31 May 2006
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,779
Australia

Not me.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09 August 2018, 11:39 PM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: 19 October 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,879
Default

Quote:
The root problem is that New York has too many full-time ride-hail drivers. Onerous licensing requirements, low car ownership, and (for a while) an enormous untapped demand for rides ensured that drivers who sought this work were serious about it, not retirees and students making a little extra cash with their cars.
Exactly. Whenever I go from JFK to Manhattan, I worry that the person driving me might be a student or a retiree, and not someone who's serious about driving. A concern shared by everyone else at the airport.

Honestly, though, if you think NYC taxi medallions are too expensive, write about how they should be cheaper. If you think people should pay to be in traffic, write about the need for a congestion tax. But pretending that everyone is better off if otherwise pointless regulations make it harder to get a car in New York? Some of us like Uber. We wouldn't be better off.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10 August 2018, 12:25 AM
Beachlife!'s Avatar
Beachlife! Beachlife! is online now
 
Join Date: 23 June 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 28,581
Default

The reason I like Uber and Lyft is that one doesn't have to stand around on a corner and hope a taxi comes by. Uber allows me to be certain I can get a ride to where I'm going from anywhere I might be to anywhere I need to go.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10 August 2018, 01:21 AM
St. Alia St. Alia is offline
 
Join Date: 06 October 2010
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Exactly. Whenever I go from JFK to Manhattan, I worry that the person driving me might be a student or a retiree, and not someone who's serious about driving. A concern shared by everyone else at the airport.

Honestly, though, if you think NYC taxi medallions are too expensive, write about how they should be cheaper. If you think people should pay to be in traffic, write about the need for a congestion tax. But pretending that everyone is better off if otherwise pointless regulations make it harder to get a car in New York? Some of us like Uber. We wouldn't be better off.
That's a whole lot of straw men there you've knocked down there.

-He never said the reader cared about who the driver is, he compared drivers in NYC to other cities. The following two sentences you didn't quote clarified that:
Quote:
The Independent Drivers Guild, which represents more than 45,000 ride-hail drivers in New York (many work for one or more companies), says nine in 10 of its members do this work full time.

In other cities, gig workers might chase peak demand (rush hour, Saturday night) and then sign off. But having an army of full-time drivers, burdened with auto debt, bringing rush hour waits down to a minute or two created a pretty serious oversupply during the quieter hours.
-He never said anything about medallions being too expensive. He said they were a great investment and their values have dropped 80% and billions have been lost basically overnight. He also said 6 cab drivers have committed suicide due to this. Hardly something he's trying to promote for becoming even more devalued I would think.

-I would guess he didn't want to write about a congestion tax because he wanted to write about this.

-Uber and other TNC's aren't going anywhere. It's a one year cap. You might have to pay more or wait longer. But drivers will have a minimum wage met, should work less unproductive hours, and reduce the environmental impact.

Uber and Lyft are decent enough. They- especially Uber- definitely have shown they have issues that need regulation. Whether or not this particular plan is a perfect resolution, I have no idea (and I doubt it's perfect- most ideas need to be tweaked), but the regulations are not pointless.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10 August 2018, 01:44 AM
ganzfeld's Avatar
ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
Join Date: 05 September 2005
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Posts: 23,654
Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by SatansHobbit View Post
Not me.
Not to worry. Eventually it will spread to every part of New York City.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10 August 2018, 03:12 PM
Seaboe Muffinchucker's Avatar
Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
Join Date: 30 June 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 18,811
Glasses

Even the Australian parts, ganzfeld?

My issue with the gig economy is this: the whole theory is that you work at what you want, when you want, for whomever you want. Yet as soon as a gig sector becomes profitable, the workers want to be employees, with all the benefits that entails. I don't have a problem with them wanting that. I have a problem with it still being referred to as part of the gig economy once they're employees, working full time at a specific job for a specific company.

Seaboe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10 August 2018, 05:45 PM
erwins's Avatar
erwins erwins is online now
 
Join Date: 04 April 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,223
Default

That's part of Uber and Lyft's legal problem as well. They relied on claims to be just arranging rides between people who wanted a ride and people who were using their own vehicles to provide a few rides for a few extra bucks, to argue that they were not taxi companies subject to those rules, or other rules that apply to car service companies, or.to employers generally.

But, now it is lucrative enough that many drivers do it as their full time job. And Uber will lease a car and a smartphone to someone who doesn't own them. So it isn't about the "sharing" or gig economy anymore. It's can be pretty indistinguishable from a taxi company, but wanting to operate outside of those regulations.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10 August 2018, 10:09 PM
E. Q. Taft's Avatar
E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
Join Date: 30 July 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,292
Default

Of course, give it a few years, and they'll all be driverless anyway....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11 August 2018, 12:17 AM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 26,359
Default

Wouldn't Uber and such be car services, not taxi companies? I don't know about New York, but taxis (on demand) and car services (pre-booked via a website or phone call) are regulated and taxed differently.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11 August 2018, 03:37 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,753
Ponder

For those who think this latest development in New York is outrageous, how do you feel about minimum wage laws?

How would you feel if, say, a union was striking for better working conditions (and their working conditions really were terrible) but then a whole bunch of scabs were brought in to skirt legislation and drive those unionized workers into either accepting progressively worse working conditions (hurray for the invisible hand!) or just outright abandoning their profession?

I think both of those are applicable to the Uber vs. taxi vs. NYC ordinances discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11 August 2018, 06:10 AM
erwins's Avatar
erwins erwins is online now
 
Join Date: 04 April 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Wouldn't Uber and such be car services, not taxi companies? I don't know about New York, but taxis (on demand) and car services (pre-booked via a website or phone call) are regulated and taxed differently.
In my city, people call for cabs. And there are apps you can use to get a cab in NYC. I don't know enough about the distinctions to know if it would matter, and if so, how. My point was that for UberX and Lyft, it seemed a bit like the Napster argument that the app is just connecting people, and there is no taxi or car service.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11 August 2018, 06:56 AM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 26,359
Default

The distinction here is that you can't hail a car and cars can't queue for fairs (like at the airport or hotels).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 15 August 2018, 02:49 AM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: 19 October 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Alia View Post

-He never said the reader cared about who the driver is, he compared drivers in NYC to other cities. The following two sentences you didn't quote clarified that:
I'm missing the clarification of those two sentences. For one thing, what does he mean by an "oversupply" of drivers during the nonquiet hours? Unless he means by oversupply "more than I'd like" there's no reason to suppose that NY's laws would cause an oversupply more than any other city would have.
Quote:
-I would guess he didn't want to write about a congestion tax because he wanted to write about this.
But why not? My Uber driver picking me up a the airport causes just as much congestion as my brother picking me up at the airport. If I said, "There are lots of red cars on the streets so we should put some extra burden on them to help with congestion," nobody would take it seriously. We'd realize all cars cause congestion. Why is it different with Uber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post

For those who think this latest development in New York is outrageous, how do you feel about minimum wage laws?

How would you feel if, say, a union was striking for better working conditions (and their working conditions really were terrible) but then a whole bunch of scabs were brought in to skirt legislation and drive those unionized workers into either accepting progressively worse working conditions (hurray for the invisible hand!) or just outright abandoning their profession?

I think both of those are applicable to the Uber vs. taxi vs. NYC ordinances discussion.
The best arguments for minimum wage laws is that

1) They raise the income of low-income workers.

2) Their effect on the employment rates of low-income workers is little or nothing (maybe even slightly positive.)

Since the whole point of this cap is that it will decrease the number of people who would otherwise drive you around NY for pay, I don't think the analogy works.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 15 August 2018, 05:33 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,753
Teacher

So would you say you support,

a) minimum wage laws, just not for taxi drivers
b) minimum wage laws for taxi drivers too, but think it’s fine if the market is so flooded with drivers (an obersupply, if you will) that they are underemployed to the point of not being able to work enough hours to live off of without having some other form of income
c) other, in which case please explain if you’re willing to carry on the conversation.

I myself buy into the idea of a minimum wage for all, but am not too sure on how to make it livable and guard against underemployment. I’m intrigued by these universal/guaranteed minimum income ideas being tested in various locales, though.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 15 August 2018, 03:28 PM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 26,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
But why not? My Uber driver picking me up a the airport causes just as much congestion as my brother picking me up at the airport.
That assumes that everyone using Uber would use another car-based method instead, which is unlikely. Not many tourists are going to have car-owning friends in NYC. If they don't, they may use a van service or public transit.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 17 August 2018, 02:29 AM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: 19 October 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
So would you say you support,

a) minimum wage laws, just not for taxi drivers
b) minimum wage laws for taxi drivers too, but think it’s fine if the market is so flooded with drivers (an obersupply, if you will) that they are underemployed to the point of not being able to work enough hours to live off of without having some other form of income
c) other, in which case please explain if you’re willing to carry on the conversation.

I myself buy into the idea of a minimum wage for all, but am not too sure on how to make it livable and guard against underemployment. I’m intrigued by these universal/guaranteed minimum income ideas being tested in various locales, though.
I'd prefer the basic income over minimum wage but I'm guessing that's a political non-starter. I don't mind a minimum wage, but taxi drivers and Uber drivers in NY make that, so it doesn't help settle the dispute. I'll go with c as well though. I wouldn't mind seeing medallion owners getting paid back something for their medallions based on how long they've been in use. z(As in, if you bought it so long ago that you've clearly made the money back, you get nothing, but if you bought it recently, you get some money refunded.)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 17 August 2018, 02:32 AM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: 19 October 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
That assumes that everyone using Uber would use another car-based method instead, which is unlikely. Not many tourists are going to have car-owning friends in NYC. If they don't, they may use a van service or public transit.
Or a taxi.

But point taken. Even so, a van adds to congestion, and if the point is to deal with congestion, then it should be taxed that way, as should other cars.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 17 August 2018, 03:23 PM
St. Alia St. Alia is offline
 
Join Date: 06 October 2010
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 877
Default

Here's a study of TNC's from to check out if you're interested "The New Automobility: Lyft, Uber and the Future of American Cities": http://www.schallerconsult.com/rides...tomobility.pdf

Some quotes from the study-

Quote:
1)TNCs have added 5.7 billion miles of driving annually in the Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Seattle and Washington DC metro areas.

2) TNCs compete mainly with public transportation, walking, and biking, drawing customers from these non-auto modes based on speed of travel, convenience, and comfort.

• About 60 percent of TNC users in large, dense cities would have taken public transportation, walked, biked or not made the trip if TNCs had not been available for the trip.

• About 40 percent would have used a personal vehicle or a taxicab had TNCs not been available for the trip.

Results from asking what mode survey respondents would
have used had ride-hailing service not been available
Quote:
New York City (616 NYC residents; multiple responses)
• 12% personal vehicle
• 43% taxi or car service
• 50% public transportation
• 13% walk
• 3% bike
• 2% would not make trip
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good news election stories thorny locust Soapbox Derby 1 11 November 2016 04:49 AM
Good News Hidden in the Data: Today’s Children Are Healthier wanderwoman Social Studies 0 18 June 2016 10:32 AM
New York Daily News Compares the NRA to Jihadists E. Q. Taft Soapbox Derby 0 20 November 2015 03:07 AM
Good news/bad news RichardM SLC 3 29 November 2013 05:40 PM
It's a 401(k) World and It Basically Sucks Simply Madeline Social Studies 29 03 May 2013 07:39 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.