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Old 01 September 2015, 04:28 PM
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Psihala Psihala is offline
 
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Icon13 Kentucky Clerk Still Won't Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses

A county clerk in Kentucky has again refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, invoking her religious beliefs and "God's authority" — this time in defiance of a U.S. Supreme Court ruling against her.

http://m.snopes.com/2015/09/01/kim-d...supreme-court/
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  #2  
Old 01 September 2015, 04:41 PM
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"They want us to accept their beliefs and their ways. But they won't accept our beliefs and our ways."
WAHHHH!! You're a bigot by not acceding to my bigotry!
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  #3  
Old 01 September 2015, 04:49 PM
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When a federal judge ordered Davis to issue licenses or be held in contempt of court, the Liberty Counsel advised her to disobey the ruling. Good lawyers don’t usually tell their clients to defy lawful court orders, especially when jail time is a real possibility.
Is Kentucky’s Infamous Anti-Gay Clerk Getting Taken for a Ride by Her Lawyers?
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  #4  
Old 01 September 2015, 05:08 PM
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Can her lawyers be held in contempt of court?

Crocoduck "I'm certainly holding them in contempt" Hunter
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  #5  
Old 01 September 2015, 05:18 PM
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In civil disobedience, the factor of jail time is weighed against the advantages of lining up supporters and gaining a public hearing. I don't know what legal obligations lawyers may have, as officers of the court, to advise clients on these extra-legal issues.
I am sure that even if she loses her job through impeachment and spends some time in jail. she will have a period of time making appearances, probably paid appearances, to like-minded audiences who object to civil recognition of marriage equality.
My guess is that the sell-by date for those tours will be pretty short. Even shorter if she avoids jail and impeachment. Being a martyr is one thing, being a flash in the pan, quite another.

Ali
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Old 01 September 2015, 06:16 PM
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I'm too lazy to go find the link again, but she, along with her staff, has been ordered to appear before the federal judge on Thursday morning.

The more I think about the link Lainie posted, the more I think it's correct. It's been clear she's been getting poor legal advice from the beginning, but I'm beginning to think more and more that she's deliberately being given poor advice in order to drum up publicity.
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Old 01 September 2015, 06:35 PM
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And that's why I want to know if her lawyers can get in trouble. If your legal council is giving you advice that will land you in contempt of court if you follow it, it seems like the lawyers should also be held liable for something.
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Old 01 September 2015, 06:55 PM
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IANAL, but I believe that the state bar would generally be the one to address any such issues with lawyers providing such advice.
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  #9  
Old 01 September 2015, 07:32 PM
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Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
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Actually, yes, lawyers can be held in contempt of court. However, not usually based on something someone else does (even if they told the person to do it).

Courts can deal directly with attorneys by fining them and a number of other things (I seem to recall that there is a law firm out there that is banned from bringing a certain type of case, because they repeatedly did so knowing the case would fail and the court got tired of it).

As for the clerk, why don't they just fire her already? ETA: as far as I'm aware, even a union can't protect you from refusing to do your job--even if your excuse is that it's against your religion.

Seaboe
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Old 01 September 2015, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
As for the clerk, why don't they just fire her already? ETA: as far as I'm aware, even a union can't protect you from refusing to do your job--even if your excuse is that it's against your religion.

Seaboe
She's elected.

According to this article

Quote:
Some same-sex marriage advocates have said that Ms. Davis, an elected official, should be removed from office, but that would be time-consuming and politically difficult in a conservative state. The state Legislature, where each party controls one chamber, could impeach her, but that is considered unlikely.

Officials have said it might be possible to charge her with official misconduct, a misdemeanor; a conviction could result in a court order removing her. The county attorney has declined to take up the question, referring it to the stateís attorney general, Jack Conway, a Democrat who is running for governor. His office has said it is looking into the matter.
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Old 01 September 2015, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chillas View Post
I'm too lazy to go find the link again, but she, along with her staff, has been ordered to appear before the federal judge on Thursday morning.
Someone linked to a supporting article in another forum I frequent:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fed...Pd4u?ocid=iehp
Quote:
Davis refused to concede her religious freedom argument even after U.S. District Judge David Bunning ordered Davis and her six deputy clerks to appear at 11 a.m. on Thursday at the federal court in Ashland. Davis has said previously that four of her deputies share her beliefs, one was ambiguous and one did not have a problem with issuing licenses to same-sex couples.
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Old 01 September 2015, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
Courts can deal directly with attorneys by fining them and a number of other things (I seem to recall that there is a law firm out there that is banned from bringing a certain type of case, because they repeatedly did so knowing the case would fail and the court got tired of it).


Jack Thompson
?
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  #13  
Old 01 September 2015, 09:04 PM
Dr. Dave Dr. Dave is offline
 
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1. Religious freedom is irrelevant, because issuing state (civil) marriage licenses is a fundamental part of the job. Which both leads to, and makes irrelevant:

2. It is also complete B.S. These are state civil marriage licenses, not religious marriage sanctifications. No one is barging into a church and forcing them to declare a religious marriage. In most (all?) states, a clergy can act as an agent of the state to finalize the license or something similar, but I am not aware of any state in which the reverse is true. But the reason I call BS, and not just "misinformed" on Ms. Davis is that she presumably has (or at least would if it came up) issued marriage licenses for Jewish couples, inter-religious couples, couples including one or more athiest, couples planning to have a ceremony with no religious officiant or ritual, couples including one or more divorce, couples who have already had premarital sex, etc., etc. No one is asking her to bless or sanctify anything, just issue the damned license.
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  #14  
Old 02 September 2015, 03:41 AM
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Whether she's getting "bad advice" or not is irrelevant IMHO. I think she knows exactly what she's getting herself into. I also think it's a deliberate move on her part to get her day in court, and turn herself into a martyr if need be. It will be interesting to see how the judge handles this on Thursday.
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  #15  
Old 02 September 2015, 09:10 AM
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I agree with DrRobert. It has even made the news here. She is getting the publicity and all her fellow fundalmentalist will slap her on the back and tell her she is doing the right thing. I am betting she will also get support from other like minded people she doesn't know, who will contact her and tell her she is doing the right thing. Eventually she will have to move on, career wise, and be confident in her own mind she did the right thing.

Weather she gets finded, jailed or simple can't run for the same office again won't matter to her mind at all.
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  #16  
Old 02 September 2015, 11:57 AM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
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Call me crazy, but I doubt she'd support someone denying her rights and citing a religious belief as justification.

Police: "You were mugged? Sorry, my beliefs prevent me from investigating it."

Doctor: "Cancer huh? Well no chemo for you. I'll only sign off on a faith healer."

Me: "My beliefs say I'm allowed to break into your home and raid your refrigerator whenever I want. I also must sacrifice chickens and goats on your living room carpet. Don't like it? Well than you're oppressing me."
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  #17  
Old 02 September 2015, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Dave View Post
It is also complete B.S. These are state civil marriage licenses, not religious marriage sanctifications.
One of the wacky arguments I've heard, I think relating to Alabama, is that public officials are all ministers of God because God wants good government, so therefore civil marriage and Christian marriage are the same thing, QED.
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  #18  
Old 02 September 2015, 12:23 PM
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I personally don't care about the Bible, but I have been making sure to post Romans 13 in threads.
The Bible may dis gays, but it is mute on whether anyone not actually having gay sex is sinning. It is pretty explicit that not following civil law is not cool, though. Wonder if the conflict will make some people's heads explode...
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  #19  
Old 02 September 2015, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DrRocket View Post
Whether she's getting "bad advice" or not is irrelevant IMHO.
I don't think the article I posted is intended to excuse the clerk's behavior, and that certainly wasn't my intention in posting it.

If her attorneys are unscrupulously exploiting her, that is reprehensible behavior on their part, and IMO should also be addressed, through whatever the proposer channels are. And practically speaking, it's possible this situation might have been resolved earlier had she been given different advice.
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  #20  
Old 02 September 2015, 02:35 PM
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I am not a lawyer, but as a professional engineer I have to follow a code of ethics, and if I was giving my client poor advice in order to advance a political agenda, I would be in SO much trouble with the state regulatory board. I would most likely end up losing my engineering license. I would hope that lawyers have a similar regulatory and ethics group (such as the bar association.)
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