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  #101  
Old 09 July 2018, 06:29 PM
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It's the same problem as every other story that involves someone shrinking. I just tune out whatever explanation was given since it's never going to actually make sense: if Ant-Man retains all his mass at ant size he'd be so dense that he'd start undergoing spontaneous nuclear reactions.
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  #102  
Old 09 July 2018, 06:45 PM
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When he's gigantic, there should be so much room between his atoms, that he could pass through objects and he'd be so light compared to his surface area that he could fly more naturally than Dumbo the elephant...

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  #103  
Old 09 July 2018, 07:01 PM
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He wouldn't fly, he'd just get blown away by the breeze. And the fact that he's less dense than the surrounding air.
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  #104  
Old 09 July 2018, 09:14 PM
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Yeah, that's basically what I meant. It's one thing to give a character a power that's based on a more-or-less impossible assumption (where the hell does Iron Man keep all the fuel for his rocket boots?), but as long as you're reasonably consistent people can generally accept it. It can even be fun trying to invent explanations (I came up with the idea that Captain America's shield was essentially a capacitor for kinetic energy -- absorbing it when used as a shield, then releasing it back when used as a weapon, giving some extra ooomph -- many years ago; it seems to be a popular theory now). But the Ant-Man films just have the power work however it needs to at the moment for plot/action purposes, and ignoring a lot of side consequences. Doesn't mean they aren't still fun, but if you're looking for something even vaguely plausible, not the place to look for it.
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  #105  
Old 09 July 2018, 10:43 PM
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I remember one time when some friends and I were talking about comic books. Someone came up with the theory that all superheroes are actually wizards, they just only know a couple of magic spells that they cast intuitively.
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  #106  
Old 10 July 2018, 03:16 AM
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Were I making up a super-hero continuity and felt it needed an explanation, they would all somehow (subconsciously/psychically) be pulling the energy needed from a different dimension or universe (similar to some of the possibilities discussed in the last section of Asimov's novel The Gods Themselves -- which does not, by the way, involve superheroes, but why not steal your science from the best? ). Wizard types such as Dr. Strange would actually be somewhat conscious of this and able to manipulate it in many different ways, whereas most heroes would only have control of a few particular aspects.

Which really isn't much different from your explanation, just sounds more scientific.
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  #107  
Old 10 July 2018, 11:07 AM
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Psionics. Sure, just a "science"-y way of handwaving "magic", kind of like invoking "the 4th dimension!!!", but as an internally consistent "explanation" for powers, it does pretty well. See, for example, George R. R. Martin's Wild Cards anthologies, or (where it really jelled for me in the comic book world, before I ever read Martin), a John Byrne issue of Fantastic Four where Reed Richards deduces that Gladiator's Superman rip-off powers must be psionic in nature (no matter how strong a being is, it cannot lift a skyscraper off the ground without the building crumbling - if it's holding together, something more than mere strength is at work).
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  #108  
Old 10 July 2018, 03:15 PM
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It really doesn't matter what the explanation is, as long as it's internally consistent. Which is generally the real problem.
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  #109  
Old 12 July 2018, 04:58 AM
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Well, I finally got to see Antman and The Wasp.

I liked it, but I really feel like both Antman movies seem a little divorced from the rest of the MCU: there's just something that feels a little off when compared to Avengers or Spider-Man. Also, Hank is an annoying character. Tony, at least, is a fun jerk. Hank is a stuck-up jerk who'd be more interesting if he experienced a few comeuppances.
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  #110  
Old 12 July 2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
I liked it, but I really feel like both Antman movies seem a little divorced from the rest of the MCU: there's just something that feels a little off when compared to Avengers or Spider-Man.
It's like a PG13-rated version of Deadpool.
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  #111  
Old 12 July 2018, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crius of CoH View Post
... a John Byrne issue of Fantastic Four where Reed Richards deduces that Gladiator's Superman rip-off powers must be psionic in nature (no matter how strong a being is, it cannot lift a skyscraper off the ground without the building crumbling - if it's holding together, something more than mere strength is at work).
Ah, FF #249 and #250 -- two issues of pure fun violence. Byrne had fun with that one. Gladiator, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men (sort of), Spider-Man and Captain America, just busting up a big section of NYC for no real good reason. The Thing completely cutting loose when he realizes he's fighting Skrulls ("Hey, even Nazis are nicer than you creeps!"), Reed pontificating a mile a minute, a reference to Spider-Man's appearances on The Electric Company...what more could you want?
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  #112  
Old 12 July 2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
The Thing completely cutting loose when he realizes he's fighting Skrulls ("Hey, even Nazis are nicer than you creeps!"),
Marvel actually printed that? I thought that they'd been pretty consistent that Red Skull was pretty much the morally worst villain in the MCU.
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  #113  
Old 12 July 2018, 06:20 PM
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Well, the Thing might have just been caught up in the heart of the moment. Call Godwin on him. (Captain America wasn't in that scene, or he might have expressed a different opinion...)
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  #114  
Old 12 July 2018, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Ah, FF #249 and #250 -- two issues of pure fun violence. Byrne had fun with that one. Gladiator, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men (sort of), Spider-Man and Captain America, just busting up a big section of NYC for no real good reason. The Thing completely cutting loose when he realizes he's fighting Skrulls ("Hey, even Nazis are nicer than you creeps!"), Reed pontificating a mile a minute, a reference to Spider-Man's appearances on The Electric Company...what more could you want?
Ah, right! IIRC, Our Heroes negated Gladiator's powers by disguising Cap in some fashion, so when Gladiator punched.... whoever he thought he was punching.... it was actually Cap's shield, which absorbed the blow. This caused doubt in Gladiator's mind, and that caused him to lose his powers to some degree, sufficient to resolve the situation. Because, with his powers being psionically based, they were directly connected to his mind, and his ability to believe in his powers.

I am going to have to dig those issues out of the box. Haven't looked at it since I bagged it, over thirty years ago.
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  #115  
Old 12 July 2018, 08:12 PM
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Yeah, Gladiator's powers have always been based on his level of self-confidence. Which lead to an utterly humiliating defeat by Cannonball in one issue of X-Men (Cannonball's mutant power is to absorb and then redirect kinetic energy, so when Gladiator punched him, he absorbed all the power and directed it right back into Gladiator, knocking him out in a single blow).
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  #116  
Old 13 July 2018, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Yeah, Gladiator's powers have always been based on his level of self-confidence. Which lead to an utterly humiliating defeat by Cannonball in one issue of X-Men (Cannonball's mutant power is to absorb and then redirect kinetic energy, so when Gladiator punched him, he absorbed all the power and directed it right back into Gladiator, knocking him out in a single blow).
I am soooo behind in the comic book world.... Cannonball, aka Sam Guthrie, former coal miner, former (I'm assuming after thirty plus years of proliferating mutant titles) member of the New Mutants? I thought he just blasted off in a direction and was temporarily invulnerable whilst doing so. Huh. To me, my Wikipedia! Uh huh. Uh huh. Hmm. OK, yep, that's him. Interesting.
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  #117  
Old 13 July 2018, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
It really doesn't matter what the explanation is, as long as it's internally consistent. Which is generally the real problem.
I agree. For most genres (even the more serious ones) there is some level of suspension of disbelief expected. You can't reasonably go into a superhero movie expecting the physics to all make sense. But when they establish the rules of their fictional universe, and then contradict it, and contradict it again all within half an hour, you kind of have to check out mentally, because there's no reason to think it's going to make sense from moment to moment.

The "physics" in the Ant Man universe are egregious even by superhero standards.

Internal consistency is one thing that tends to turn me off from Star Trek. For all the obvious trappings of science fiction, their society and technology doesn't hang together very well as a whole. It might make sense within a single episode taken in isolation, but when they want to tell a certain plot in a different episode they'll change some crucial detail. And they don't really think through what the implications would be for their society of the various technologies and alien species they encounter. None of it bears much scrutiny, because clearly nobody has thought it all through at a high level, they just hand wave whatever they need from episode to episode for each story arc, and the consistency is strained past breaking. And if it doesn't provoke independent thought because the world doesn't make any sense, then what's the point of science fiction?
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  #118  
Old 13 July 2018, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Well, I finally got to see Antman and The Wasp.

I liked it, but I really feel like both Antman movies seem a little divorced from the rest of the MCU: there's just something that feels a little off when compared to Avengers or Spider-Man. Also, Hank is an annoying character. Tony, at least, is a fun jerk. Hank is a stuck-up jerk who'd be more interesting if he experienced a few comeuppances.
I've come to think of the Ant-Man movies as feature-length breather episodes. If you look at both of them, it's kind of obvious. After putting us through some heavy stuff in Age of Ultron and some really heavy stuff in Infinity Wars, Marvel gives us a break by giving us a movie where the stakes aren't quite as heavy and it's just fun.

The second one is better in that, well, the second movie of superhero series tends to be better, because they've gotten the introduction out of the way and can just skip to the ass-kicking.

Also with the first one, you can tell they were just scrambling, trying to come up reasons for why they couldn't just have Hope do it, seeing as she's way more competent than Scott in every way. I kept waiting for Hank to finally snap and go, "Because Hollywood thinks the reason every female-led superhero film has failed is because a the protagonist is a girl with girl parts! That's why you can't do this!" Though I have to admit that the villain of the first one was kind of fun in that he acted less like a villain and more like a spurned lover.
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  #119  
Old 13 July 2018, 04:28 PM
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I rather liked the fact that the main "villain" in this one wasn't really a villain, either. Admittedly, at certain points I wanted to slap them and say "You could be working together on this, you know!" But I suppose the reasons for distrust on both sides were reasonably valid.
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  #120  
Old 13 July 2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
I agree. For most genres (even the more serious ones) there is some level of suspension of disbelief expected. You can't reasonably go into a superhero movie expecting the physics to all make sense. But when they establish the rules of their fictional universe, and then contradict it, and contradict it again all within half an hour, you kind of have to check out mentally, because there's no reason to think it's going to make sense from moment to moment.
You can even get away with a contradiction if it's noticed in-universe as something that somehow shouldn't be possible.
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