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  #21  
Old 15 April 2014, 06:19 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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And I have completely ripped off the rear tire before and was still able to control the car. Google the topic and you will find that best tires on the rear is always the recommendation no matter your pesonal experience.
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  #22  
Old 15 April 2014, 08:14 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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I think people that have driven for a while have experienced flat tires while driving. In my experience, it is difficult to even notice a totally flat rear tire. A flat front tire is immediately obvious to the driver.
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  #23  
Old 15 April 2014, 08:21 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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With the overboosted power steering systems many cars have, many people will not notice a flat front. They will notice a flat rear the first turn they make.
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  #24  
Old 15 April 2014, 08:29 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
With the overboosted power steering systems many cars have, many people will not notice a flat front. They will notice a flat rear the first turn they make.
Not in my experience. A flat front tire pulls in that direction even with power steering. A flat rear tire doesn't pull and isn't really noticeable on a normal turn. If you regularly slide the rear-end when going around corners than you might notice a flat rear tire.
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  #25  
Old 15 April 2014, 10:15 PM
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Latiam Latiam is offline
 
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So when you buy two new tires they put them on the rear? What about when you have a flat and buy one tire to replace it?

It's a good thing I was hit in April. Two months later I would have been on 4 brand new all-season tires and furious as well as mournful. They did give me credit for having snow tires on the car, though.
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  #26  
Old 15 April 2014, 10:18 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Not in my experience. A flat front tire pulls in that direction even with power steering. A flat rear tire doesn't pull and isn't really noticeable on a normal turn. If you regularly slide the rear-end when going around corners than you might notice a flat rear tire.
You must drive like a granny to not notice a rear flat in a corner.
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  #27  
Old 15 April 2014, 10:20 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latiam View Post
So when you buy two new tires they put them on the rear? What about when you have a flat and buy one tire to replace it?

It's a good thing I was hit in April. Two months later I would have been on 4 brand new all-season tires and furious as well as mournful. They did give me credit for having snow tires on the car, though.
You want the tires on the drive axle, front or rear, to have very close to the same diameter so as to avoid stress on the differential. If you have an all wheel drive vehicle such as a Subaru, you want all 4 tires to be close. Check your owner's manual.
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  #28  
Old 15 April 2014, 10:42 PM
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Latiam Latiam is offline
 
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Oh, both this car and my last one were front wheel drive. I have no idea where they put the new tires - both times I drove to the dealership and they took off the donut and did it for me.

I haven't had a flat on this car yet, knock on wood. It's only a year old.

ETA:

Quote:
You must drive like a granny to not notice a rear flat in a corner.
I have had two flats - once I tore open a front tire on an island - it was sharp and ripped a gash in it. I managed to finish the turn and pull into the first side street before it went completely flat.

The second time I scraped it on a curb that again was sharp. It only abraded a small hole in it and I was in fact able to get home before the tire went completely flat, but I knew the whole way the tire was affected.

That was the one my father taught me how to change a tire with. I know how to do it, even though I have roadside assistance anywhere in North America. Find me somewhere where there isn't cell service and I'm not helpless.

Last edited by Latiam; 15 April 2014 at 10:54 PM.
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  #29  
Old 15 April 2014, 10:44 PM
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Hero_Mike Hero_Mike is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
And I have completely ripped off the rear tire before and was still able to control the car. Google the topic and you will find that best tires on the rear is always the recommendation no matter your pesonal experience.
I made no comment on where one should have their "best" tire - I merely pointed out that a flat tire on a RWD car, front or rear, did not cause me any real grief and I was able to slow down the car and pull over to the side of the road without incident. If a tire is so far gone that it is likely to go flat imminently, well, the only good place for that tire is in the trunk.

It is worth noting that a flat tire on the front of a FWD car has much more potential for bad things to happen - steering and traction are both affected much more than a RWD car. Since most cars are FWD, that's the situation to avoid, but it's still not smart to have any tires significantly worse than the others. That said, if I'd rather drive on a donut spare on a back tire (of a FWD car) than a front tire.
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  #30  
Old 15 April 2014, 11:09 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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I am simply pointing out that yours and my experiences are anecdotes, not data. Since I have been racing for 30+ years, I do have a good feel for tires being low though, perhaps better than average.
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  #31  
Old 15 April 2014, 11:15 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
I am simply pointing out that yours and my experiences are anecdotes, not data. Since I have been racing for 30+ years, I do have a good feel for tires being low though, perhaps better than average.
Actually, since they are first person reports they are data.


I probably do drive like a little old lady and wish everyone else would as well. Tires are pretty darn expensive. Gas is pretty darn expensive. Driving fast rarely gets you to your destination faster. An idiot 50 miles ahead of me driving fast often means it takes me hours longer to get to my destination (after they crash and back the freeway up for tens of miles).
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  #32  
Old 16 April 2014, 01:00 AM
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Hero_Mike Hero_Mike is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Actually, since they are first person reports they are data.
Yes, but with a very small sample size.

Years of experience still doesn't mean a lot of experience with disaster - I've been driving for 27 years now and never had to experience a high-speed accident, rollover, or anything like that. That's probably statistically typical, so it doesn't say anything about the quality of my driving. Again, if you have one bald tire, and 3 good ones, the best place for that bald tire is at the junkyard, or in the trunk, while your good spare is on the road, and you are on your way to buy a new tire.
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  #33  
Old 16 April 2014, 02:26 PM
overyonder overyonder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Driving fast rarely gets you to your destination faster. An idiot 50 miles ahead of me (snip)
I've driven from Charlotte to Montreal a good few times over the last 15 years, and a 5mph increase would decrease my arrival time by approximately 1 hour.

OY
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  #34  
Old 16 April 2014, 02:35 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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That would be a 5mph increase in average speed, not top speed. As a car guy, I often hear kids (anyone under 30 these days ) proclaim that they average at least 80 on the open road. Yet when asked how long it takes them to go from Dallas to Austin, about 200 miles, they will say 3 1/2 hours and be very surprised when I tell them that is an average speed of only 57.
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  #35  
Old 16 April 2014, 03:04 PM
overyonder overyonder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
That would be a 5mph increase in average speed, not top speed. As a car guy, I often hear kids (anyone under 30 these days ) proclaim that they average at least 80 on the open road. Yet when asked how long it takes them to go from Dallas to Austin, about 200 miles, they will say 3 1/2 hours and be very surprised when I tell them that is an average speed of only 57.
Yes that's an average speed. I have varied my time-on-road by up to 3.5 hours for that route, using the same amount of stops for breaks & fuel-ups.

Point is, increased average speed does affect the time it takes to get there.

OY
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  #36  
Old 16 April 2014, 05:17 PM
niner niner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Under steer is considered safer than oversteer because the recovery technique is simpler. To recover from understeer, just lift off the gas pedal. Recovering from oversteer requires skill. Putting the better tires on the rear has been recommended for many years.
Yes, this. I don't like the Click & Clack "folksy" answer because my immediate counterargument is that I want to put the best traction on the tires I have *most* control over - not least. My experience is that oversteer tends to be more catastrophic - when the back end starts swinging out to the side, braking will tend to increase that rear end swing, so you go from minor oversteer to major oversteer fast. The front tires also take the brunt of the stopping force so in a straight-line stop, it's better to have better tires in front for that, regardless of drive wheels.

I personally would go with best tires up front on FWD, but I (like most people) consider myself an above-average driver. I do take my cars to autocross events and have pushed the cars well into understeer and occasionally oversteer conditions regularly. Understeer tends to be "dang, I didn't make that turn as tight as I'd like", oversteer tends to be "oh man I spun out which way am I facing now?" My personal preference front/rear is somewhat moot, however; with one exception I've always replaced all 4 tires at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latiam View Post
So when you buy two new tires they put them on the rear? What about when you have a flat and buy one tire to replace it?
If the other tires are all fairly new, one new tire is fine. If I had 12 months drive time* on the set, I'd replace at least two tires.

* I drive winter/summer tires on most of my cars so after 1 year I haven't seen 1 year's worth of drive time.

Last edited by niner; 16 April 2014 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Swapped terms, thanks Genyus
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  #37  
Old 16 April 2014, 05:25 PM
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GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
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If the back end is swinging out, you've got oversteer, not understeer.
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  #38  
Old 16 April 2014, 06:41 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overyonder View Post
Point is, increased average speed does affect the time it takes to get there.

OY
But rarely can one actually increase their average speed.

Case 1: Sprinting between stop lights. Going 15 MPH over the limit between a pair of stoplights rarely affects how fast you get to where you are going. All you do is increase your time sitting still (and you put all other drivers on the road at risk).

Case 2: Yes, you add 5 MPH to your average speed on a long trip and on that one trip you get there faster. The next time you do it someone else if 5 MPH over the limit (or driving too fast for road conditions) and they cause an accident (or make an accident worse than it would have been). Your 3 hour trip is now 4 hours because of sitting in a traffic jam. You trip at +5 MPH over the limit put everyone else at risk of being stuck in a traffic jam. That won't happen every trip but then again it isn't just you that is over the limit and your travel time depends on everyone else's behavior. Over a large number of trips what happens on one trip isn't the whole story.
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  #39  
Old 16 April 2014, 06:45 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
Yes, but with a very small sample size.

Years of experience still doesn't mean a lot of experience with disaster - I've been driving for 27 years now and never had to experience a high-speed accident, rollover, or anything like that. That's probably statistically typical, so it doesn't say anything about the quality of my driving. Again, if you have one bald tire, and 3 good ones, the best place for that bald tire is at the junkyard, or in the trunk, while your good spare is on the road, and you are on your way to buy a new tire.
True, experience measured in years doesn't mean you've experienced every situation. It does increase the likelihood of experience a particular situation. In my case I've driven a long distance (at least tens of miles) on the freeway with a flat rear tire. The flat tire had no noticeable affect on the behavior of the car at freeway speeds. I've also driven with a flat front tire and in that case is was immediately obvious while driving that something was serious wrong with how the car behaved.
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  #40  
Old 16 April 2014, 07:03 PM
overyonder overyonder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Case 2: Yes, you add 5 MPH to your average speed on a long trip and on that one trip you get there faster. The next time you do it someone else if 5 MPH over the limit (or driving too fast for road conditions) and they cause an accident (or make an accident worse than it would have been). Your 3 hour trip is now 4 hours because of sitting in a traffic jam. You trip at +5 MPH over the limit put everyone else at risk of being stuck in a traffic jam. That won't happen every trip but then again it isn't just you that is over the limit and your travel time depends on everyone else's behavior. Over a large number of trips what happens on one trip isn't the whole story.
Around here, it's more like 'If you're ONLY at 5mph over the limit, you're the CAUSE of traffic", as everyone is driving 10-15mph over.

OY
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