snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > SLC Central > Rantidote

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #661  
Old 07 August 2018, 03:28 PM
Beachlife!'s Avatar
Beachlife! Beachlife! is online now
 
Join Date: 22 June 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 28,484
Default

I don't have air conditioning except in my bedroom. I installed that unit in June after going years without it altogether. I came home from a long weekend in Toronto and the house had been closed up in high 90 degree heat so it was either put it in or suffocate.

The temperature in my house on hot summer days gets above 80, but it cools off at night enough that it rarely bothers me. Having a pool definitely helps. On hot days, I might swim 4-5 times to cool off.

In another couple of weeks my daughter is moving in for a bit. She's been living in Ecuador where the temperature is 50-70 everyday, all year round. I've already laid up a supply of air conditioners to use while she is here.
Reply With Quote
  #662  
Old 07 August 2018, 03:57 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
Join Date: 24 November 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
We don't have air conditioning as it is generally known. We have swamp coolers. They work very well 99.9 percent of the time here in the desert.
I was looking at the Wikipedia page for swamp coolers, okay, more precisely, evaporative cooler, and looking at a few hot weather examples:

At 32 C (90 F) and 15% relative humidity, air may be cooled to nearly 16 C (61 F). The dew point for these conditions is 2 C (36 F).

At 32 C and 50% relative humidity, air may be cooled to about 24 C (75 F). The dew point for these conditions is 20 C (68 F).

At 40 C (104 F) and 15% relative humidity, air may be cooled to nearly 21 C (70 F). The dew point for these conditions is 8 C (46 F).

Well, so far, so good, but how much water is required to achieve these results. Yes, I realize without knowing how much cooling is required, no way to figure water use, but what I am getting at is that there has to be a fairly substantial amount of water used in these systems.

I lived a few years in Kuwait and the majority of the days, the humidity is below 20%, usually lower, but I don't remember a lick of evaporative cooling used - it was all freon based.

Considering that all the potable water in Kuwait is manufactured, distilled, as I understand it, and that considering the energy involved in distilling water, it might simply be energy efficient to use freon compression/expansion cycle cooling.

Is evaporative cooling of large scale buildings, malls, as an example, possible?
Reply With Quote
  #663  
Old 07 August 2018, 04:06 PM
WildaBeast's Avatar
WildaBeast WildaBeast is offline
 
Join Date: 18 July 2002
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 15,511
Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Frankly, let us proclaim Willis Carrier to be up there with Edison in greatness. For making large portions of this country livable, he deserves many hymns of praise and a monument on the national mall.
As you may know, each state gets to choose one person to honor with a statue in the rotunda of the US Capitol. Most states choose some statesman, former governor, that sort of thing. But according to the tour guide when I visited as a kid, Florida (if I remember correctly) picked Willis Carrier.
Reply With Quote
  #664  
Old 07 August 2018, 04:44 PM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 25,973
Default

They get to choose two people. Florida's current statues are Edmund Kirby Smith, a Confederate general, and John Gorrie, an architect who holds a patent on an ice maker. Gorrie is probably the basis for the story about Carrier.
Reply With Quote
  #665  
Old 07 August 2018, 05:43 PM
Dr. Winston O'Boogie's Avatar
Dr. Winston O'Boogie Dr. Winston O'Boogie is offline
 
Join Date: 23 February 2000
Location: Fox Lake, IL
Posts: 5,207
Cowboy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Seriously, how was this state settled before the advent of AC?!
Maybe it was due to the wonderful singing. Wouldn't it seem perfect if everyone was walking around singing "There's a bright golden haze on the meadow!"
Reply With Quote
  #666  
Old 07 August 2018, 05:45 PM
WildaBeast's Avatar
WildaBeast WildaBeast is offline
 
Join Date: 18 July 2002
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 15,511
Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
They get to choose two people. Florida's current statues are Edmund Kirby Smith, a Confederate general, and John Gorrie, an architect who holds a patent on an ice maker. Gorrie is probably the basis for the story about Carrier.
I was probably misremembering the person who the statue was of, now that I think of it. The tour guide definitely mentioned air conditioning, but maybe it was in the context of Gorrie invented something related to refrigeration, which arguably was a step on the way to Carrier inventing air conditioning. And saying that Florida chose to honor someone who had something to do with air conditioning makes for an amusing story to tell visitors.
Reply With Quote
  #667  
Old 07 August 2018, 06:45 PM
Seaboe Muffinchucker's Avatar
Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
Join Date: 30 June 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 18,514
Glasses

Seattle is swiftly becoming a city where you need air conditioning. I still do quite well without it, but do not have moral objections to it (yes, I believe there are some people who do).

Seaboe
Reply With Quote
  #668  
Old 07 August 2018, 08:20 PM
mbravo's Avatar
mbravo mbravo is offline
 
Join Date: 29 December 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,286
Default

I posted earlier this summer about our AC kicking the bucket in the middle of the biggest heat wave thus far in the summer. I am extremely grateful that things have been comfy and cool since then. The kitchen pantry is too warm for me to feel comfortable keeping produce in it but other than that I have no complaints. The living area where we spend most of our time is below 80, the bedroom is probably around that or maybe a little more when we go to bed but by now I've adjusted to it. We run the AC on about 76 usually and sometimes even that feels cold to me now. I'm glad both that the AC was fixed and that my body adjusted to the temperature being a little warmer in general.
Reply With Quote
  #669  
Old 07 August 2018, 09:26 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,415
Default RE: Evaporative cooling

Evap cooling is used around here on some fairly large buildings. But large office buildings and commercial buildings are probably not good candidates for it. Being an electrical engineer, not a mechanical/HVAC one, I suspect that the lack of control of evap cooling is the reason. It is hard for an evap system to do anything except full cool or off. Others are free to tell me this is wrong and why.

Also, large refrigeration systems use a form of evap cooling in that this is pretty much what a cooling tower is.
Reply With Quote
  #670  
Old 07 August 2018, 10:38 PM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 25,973
Default

Don't know about that, large scale evaporative cooling could be used for very large buildings. AIUI, it works the same as a large scale refrigeration. The system circulates chilled coolant (salt water?) throughout the building. Each section of the building will control their temperature by blowing air past their individual evaporator or not.

For those who aren't sure how this works, this article about the University of Nebraska-Lincoln's HVAC system is a good example.

ETA: I don't know if any large scale system would depend solely on evaporative systems since they have a limit to the maximum amount of cooling (30F is the standard rule of thumb) and they work poorly as the relative humidity climbs.

Last edited by GenYus234; 07 August 2018 at 10:42 PM. Reason: clarity
Reply With Quote
  #671  
Old 07 August 2018, 11:08 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
Join Date: 24 November 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Don't know about that, large scale evaporative cooling could be used for very large buildings. AIUI, it works the same as a large scale refrigeration. The system circulates chilled coolant (salt water?) throughout the building. Each section of the building will control their temperature by blowing air past their individual evaporator or not.
I've worked with chilled water systems and I'd venture our chilled water is in the 40 degree F range. The chillers almost always are freon system based, and I don't think we've ever used salt water in the chilled water loop, since salt water would have significant corrosion problems. Usually, the cooling for each zone is regulated by controlling the flow of chilled water through the cold coil for the zone.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
For those who aren't sure how this works, this article about the University of Nebraska-Lincoln's HVAC system is a good example.

ETA: I don't know if any large scale system would depend solely on evaporative systems since they have a limit to the maximum amount of cooling (30F is the standard rule of thumb) and they work poorly as the relative humidity climbs.
From your linked article, I see:

During the summer, water enters cooling tower at about 90 degrees Fahrenheit and exits at 75 degrees.

That would suggest the cooling towers are used to dissipate the heat from the condenser coil side of the refrigerant loop as a design option rather than pump the freon to a condenser coil outside the building. Yes, it does appear that there is some evaporative cooling involved, but that is probably more a side benefit than the real reason for using cooling towers. Long runs of freon have their own issues, if nothing else, the longer the loop, the more chances for leaks

I can't imagine a building which has vent air temperatures of 75 degrees F to be comfortable in the summer, so no doubt there is a freon loop somewhere.

I am using freon as a generic term, as opposed to the specific form of refrigerant.

Last edited by UrbanLegends101; 07 August 2018 at 11:10 PM. Reason: adding something
Reply With Quote
  #672  
Old 07 August 2018, 11:18 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
Join Date: 24 November 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Evap cooling is used around here on some fairly large buildings. But large office buildings and commercial buildings are probably not good candidates for it. Being an electrical engineer, not a mechanical/HVAC one, I suspect that the lack of control of evap cooling is the reason. It is hard for an evap system to do anything except full cool or off. Others are free to tell me this is wrong and why.
If an evaporative system had enough excess cooling capacity, one way to control temperatures is to bypass some air around the cooling section, or even use reheaters, another water loop bringing outside ambient air temperature water to a reheat coil in the air loop.

Of course, most simpler freon systems are full cool or not, with the compressors controlled by thermostats. Newer systems, with variable speed controllers could very well fine-tune the compressor(s) to the amount of cooling power needed at the moment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post

Also, large refrigeration systems use a form of evap cooling in that this is pretty much what a cooling tower is.
True enough. My parent's home, built in the mid-1950s, had a small water tower, maybe 3 feet by 4 feet, water was maybe a foot deep and the entire tower was ten feet tall or so. The compressors (two of them with a two stage thermostat) were inside the house and the freon loop was self contained in the inside unit. Later, the parents had to change out the unit, and the new system had the compressor and condenser coil outside and the freon was pumped to an evaporator coil in the air handling unit inside the house.
Reply With Quote
  #673  
Old 07 August 2018, 11:31 PM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 25,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLegends101 View Post
During the summer, water enters cooling tower at about 90 degrees Fahrenheit and exits at 75 degrees.
...
I can't imagine a building which has vent air temperatures of 75 degrees F to be comfortable in the summer, so no doubt there is a freon loop somewhere.
Vent air temperatures of 75F wouldn't be very comfortable, but 75F isn't the hard lower limit, just the lower limit when the incoming water is 95F. As the article points out, the system cools the incoming water by 10 to 15F. If you were using the system as direct cooling, the water entering the cooling tower would probably be somewhere around 70F and be cooled to at least 60F. That's certainly cool enough to provide comfortable air conditioning.

ETA: As I pointed out above, there are other reasons why a simple evaporative system wouldn't be practical*, but never being able to reach room temperature is not one of them.

* Another reason is that evaporative systems can harbor fungus and other microorganisms. And they require constant fresh air to be pumped into the building, meaning filtration of incoming air is more difficult. Plus, increased levels of humidity may not be good for a building's structure or furnishings.
Reply With Quote
  #674  
Old 10 August 2018, 06:53 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
Join Date: 24 November 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Vent air temperatures of 75F wouldn't be very comfortable, but 75F isn't the hard lower limit, just the lower limit when the incoming water is 95F. As the article points out, the system cools the incoming water by 10 to 15F. If you were using the system as direct cooling, the water entering the cooling tower would probably be somewhere around 70F and be cooled to at least 60F. That's certainly cool enough to provide comfortable air conditioning.

ETA: As I pointed out above, there are other reasons why a simple evaporative system wouldn't be practical*, but never being able to reach room temperature is not one of them.

* Another reason is that evaporative systems can harbor fungus and other microorganisms. And they require constant fresh air to be pumped into the building, meaning filtration of incoming air is more difficult. Plus, increased levels of humidity may not be good for a building's structure or furnishings.
Agree totally on the humidity issue. I think the idea of evaporative cooling for the outside heat exchanger may have merit, to cool the condenser side of a freon system.

In the last place I worked, we had multiple water chillers for most of the buildings and the chillers were complete units for the freon side, with chilled water circulating through the building. The hot side output from the compressors was hot enough to burn skin, well during the summer, when the ambient air temperatures were above 110 degrees F. I suppose we could have used some misting units to cool the air entering the units, but then that was another system to deal with. We'd also have to pay for a fair amount of water, as well, although we never really considered this aspect, both the cost or even the concept of misting units.
Reply With Quote
  #675  
Old 10 August 2018, 06:55 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
Join Date: 24 November 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,355
Default

Another first world problem - I have now joined the ranks of those who have received the IRS scam call. A robo voice telling me I owe the IRS money and must return a phone call to 802-671-7030. This will have to wait until I wash my hair, mow the grass, wash the car and dozens of honey-do things I've ignored for years.
Reply With Quote
  #676  
Old 12 August 2018, 08:19 PM
WildaBeast's Avatar
WildaBeast WildaBeast is offline
 
Join Date: 18 July 2002
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 15,511
Default

The Kalalau Trail, Hāʻena State Park, and Limahuli Garden are all closed due to flood damage. Those were the top things on my list of things to do on Kauai. Now what am I going to do for a week here?
Reply With Quote
  #677  
Old 16 August 2018, 02:12 PM
DawnStorm's Avatar
DawnStorm DawnStorm is offline
 
Join Date: 11 March 2003
Location: Montgomery County, MD
Posts: 16,616
Bang Head

Seems like I'm the only who thinks to check the water level on the Keurig device at work. Of course it's low, so I need to fill it before I can have my iced tea.
Reply With Quote
  #678  
Old 16 August 2018, 05:55 PM
Kermor Kermor is offline
 
Join Date: 22 June 2012
Location: Bois d'Arcy, France
Posts: 368
France

Okay, first, go to my latest post in the "Letters you wish you could send" thread.

Done ? Okay, so here is the FWP that prompts me to post here : I finally received the dates of my autumn/winter vacations this tuesday. So, I went directly to the UK site of TicketMaster to get a seat for the Joanna Lumley show on november 11th. Everything went perfectly well (there are still some seats available, although not many), until it was time to pay. And there, I found out that i couldn't pay because I had to enter a code that was supposed to be sent to me by phone (a measure to deter credit card fraud). Except that my main phone isn't working anymore, so I didn't get the code, and so couldn't conclude the buying. I had to go to the post office (which doubles as my bank) to get the whole "Certicode" business transferred to my smartphone, but the postwoman there told me that it would be another 48 hours before I can use it. DAAAAAAAAAAMN !!!!

And in other news, seems like some animals (I hope for insects like ants) have been eating my comic book boxes, again. Which means I'll have to replace them, which I won't be able to until next week. It never rains, but it pours.
Reply With Quote
  #679  
Old 16 August 2018, 08:09 PM
E. Q. Taft's Avatar
E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
Join Date: 30 July 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,172
Bang Head

Why the hell don't they make relatively inexpensive cameras with actual viewfinders any more? I can't POSSIBLY be the only one out there who finds it much easier to frame a picture and hold the camera steady with my eye pressed to the viewfinder, as opposed to holding it far enough from my face to see the LCD screen -- assuming it's not so bright out that I can't make out the damned screen in the first place.

Seriously, I just do not get this.
Reply With Quote
  #680  
Old 17 August 2018, 10:12 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
We don't have air conditioning as it is generally known. We have swamp coolers. They work very well 99.9 percent of the time here in the desert. However, for the past week we have had only 1 of the 3 on the house working. Plus the gas line has been removed for roof work. So the house has been warm to hot (87 in the living room, cooler in the bedroom.) But the heat is balanced out by having to take cold showers since the water heater is gas.
While we now have the house cool, we still don't have gas for cooking or hot showers. It has been 3 weeks although we did have a partial hook up of the gas last weekend for hot water but not cooking. The gas line has been complete since Tuesday but without inspection, we aren't supposed to turn it on. It is after 4PM here and still no inspector. So come 5:30 or so, I will go turn the gas on for the weekend. ARRG!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First world problems WildaBeast Rantidote 1012 14 January 2018 08:04 PM
First world problems Not_Done_Living Rantidote 1000 24 January 2017 10:33 PM
First world problems Cervus Rantidote 999 28 January 2016 04:01 PM
First world problems WildaBeast Rantidote 1016 05 June 2014 02:22 PM
First world problems smittykins Rantidote 999 18 July 2013 06:35 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.