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  #41  
Old 23 June 2015, 05:24 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Which doesn't really mean anything since each side has a set of goals that they thing are worthy and proper. The OP demonstrates exactly that.
So you are saying it is not possible for one side to be wrong? Just because a person believes something doesn't mean the belief has value. The OP does not demonstrate "exactly that" since much of what the OP says is factually incorrect and the rest is so badly skewed that it might as well be incorrect.
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  #42  
Old 23 June 2015, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
This, of course, is the most pernicious myth. The South seceded because of slavery. This isn't supposition: They specifically said this was the reason.

South Carolina -- who seceded first -- put out their "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." They considered this to be the equivalent of the Declaration of Independence, a documents justifying their actions, and one that would be taught in schools for generations.
There are actually 5 Secession Declarations that are known to exist to this day - South Carolina, Georgia,Mississippi, Texas and Virginia http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...s.html#Georgia
Aside from Virginia, the others make reference to slavery multiple times.
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  #43  
Old 23 June 2015, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
But that's not really accurate, is it? Sometimes the Losers can put as much spin as they want. Sometimes a free press enables them. Sometimes the people in power use or at least allow the Loser version. Sometimes Losers write history books and textbooks as well.
You mean like the Texas Board of Education?
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  #44  
Old 23 June 2015, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
I think the goals of the revolution, and the aftermath, probably has something to do with the difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War.
That's exactly the point snopes was making. Someone said the Confederacy and people associated with it should not be revered, because they were traitors. Snopes was pointing out that without context, it's impossible to know whether a "traitor" should be revered or not.
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  #45  
Old 24 June 2015, 03:22 AM
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The other four states' declarations of secession are many times longer than Virginia's and recite at great length their grievances against the federal government. However, Virginia's declaration also refers to slavery. It says (italics in original):

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.
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  #46  
Old 24 June 2015, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
This, of course, is the most pernicious myth.
It's worse than pernicious. According to the poll I posted earlier, 48% of people in the US accept this lie. That has to be way more than the whole population of the South - including all the border states!
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  #47  
Old 24 June 2015, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
MYTH – The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.
The always awesome Ta-Neshi Coates's article "What This Cruel War Was Over" The Atlantic 22 June 2015 debunks much of the OP.
Quote:
The Confederate flag is directly tied to the Confederate cause, and the Confederate cause was white supremacy. This claim is not the result of revisionism. It does not require reading between the lines. It is the plain meaning of the words of those who bore the Confederate flag across history. These words must never be forgotten.
{ snip }
Even after the war, as the Lost Cause rose, many veterans remained clear about why they had rallied to the Confederate flag. "I've never heard of any other cause than slavery," wrote Confederate commander John S. Mosby. The progeny of the Confederacy repeatedly invoked slavery as the war’s cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
MYTH – The South revered slavery.

FACT – A very interesting fact on slavery is that at the time the War of 1861 -1865 officially commenced, the Southern States were actually in the process of freeing all slaves in the South.
Quoting Mr. Coates

Quote:
Slaveholders were not modest about the perceived virtues of their way of life. In the years leading up to the Civil War, calls for expansion into the tropics reached a fever pitch, and slaveholders marveled at the possibility of spreading a new empire into central America.
{ snip }
Thus in 1861, when the Civil War began, the Union did not face a peaceful Southern society wanting to be left alone. It faced an an aggressive power, a Genosha, an entire society based on the bondage of a third of its residents, with dreams of expanding its fields of the bondage further South. It faced the dream of a vast American empire of slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
The Second National flag was subsequently modified due to the similarity to a flag of truce.
Here's what William T. Thompson, the designer of this flag, said on 23 April 1863:
Quote:
As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
FACT – Quite simply a major falsehood of history. Many blacks, both free and of their own will, joined the Confederate Army to fight for their beloved Southern home.
Sigh. Not this one again. This site has a nice debunking of this myth with one problem (elaborated below):
Quote:
Professor John Stauffer of Harvard has recently done research on just this subject, and estimates that there may have been a bit over 3,000 black soldiers formed on the Confederate side (Article HERE.) Now, before you get excited, keep in mind that Stauffer points out that many of these black soldiers were not accepted by the Confederate government and were not issued firearms: still more of these soldiers were coerced into joining the military, and others joined to escape miserable poverty. Professor Carol Sheriff of the College of William and Mary reinforces the notion that any blacks who fought did so somewhat involuntarily, by clarifying that some black body-servants may have taken up arms in the heat of battle to defend their masters and themselves, and even then they were sometimes forced to do so. (Article HERE.) She also makes the point that arming blacks or allowing them to fight in the military was illegal in the Confederacy. This makes it extremely difficult to claim that the Confederates used black troops, because refusing to allow them to fight and forcing them to join in the first place quashes the notion that they were soldiers. In any case, they were present in such minuscule numbers that it’s difficult to validate their presence – these “soldiers” only represented about one half of one percent of the Confederate military strength.
{ snip }
While a few thousand African Americans may have indeed joined the Confederates, they joined at the start of the war and were quickly rebuffed by the Confederate government either directly or by denial of equipment.
I need to point out that Professor Stauffer's claim of 3,000 black Confederate soldiers is very controversial -- most historians don't think it was nearly that high. For example:
Quote:
The problem, as I see it, is that Stauffer confuses the crucial distinction between serving as a soldier in Confederate ranks and being impressed by the government and/or military for some purpose.
{ snip }
In the end, what John Stauffer doesn’t seem to understand is that Confederate authorities (civilian and military) were very clear about who was and who was not a soldier. Stauffer, like the vast majority of neo-Confederates seem to have no problem trotting out Union accounts purporting to show that there were black soldiers in Confederate ranks.

I will issue the same challenge to Stauffer that I have to anyone who has made claims about the existence of black Confederate soldiers. Please find me one wartime account from a Confederate soldier, officer or politician who mentions that black men fought as soldiers in the army. I am not asking for fifty or one hundred, just one.
So, even a Neo Confederate says the OP is full of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Could the people who write this stuff really be that stupid or are they just trolling?
Great question. I wish I had an answer.

Brian
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  #48  
Old 24 June 2015, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
It's worse than pernicious. According to the poll I posted earlier, 48% of people in the US accept this lie. That has to be way more than the whole population of the South - including all the border states!
I may have mentioned earlier that Lost Cause nonsense about the Civil War made it into my history books in Ohio in the 1970s. A year or two ago I overheard a woman 5 or 10 years younger than me, and also not from the South, "enlighten" a younger woman on the topic. So I'm not surprised people beyond the South believe it.
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  #49  
Old 24 June 2015, 03:29 PM
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A somewhat trivial but maybe enlightening example: I don't think The Dukes of Hazzard was only popular in the South. The car sported a Confederate battle flag, a Dixie horn, and the name The General Lee. But they were just some "good ol' boys, never meaning no harm." (Why, yes, I did watch the show as a kid.) I'm pretty sure they even had A Black Friend.

I think the presentation on that show was pretty typical of how a lot of people viewed the flag and the Confederacy, and how people can display it and claim that it isn't done out of racism. I think many people do view it as representing being a rebel, and Southern pride. It is not motivated by racism, but it is, of course, still a racist act. Not least because it defines "Southern" in a way that means "white Southern." And after all, it was the white South that lost the war. The slaves were freed as a result--probably not a net loss in their eyes.
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  #50  
Old 24 June 2015, 03:49 PM
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I always thought D of H was incredibly condescending in its treatment of southerners.
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  #51  
Old 24 June 2015, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
You mean like the Texas Board of Education?
Especially them.
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  #52  
Old 24 June 2015, 04:23 PM
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Can g-we all at least get the names right? An NPR story on the controversy in South Carolina called the flag "Stars and Bars", which is not correct. The Stars and Bars has two red and one white horizontal stripes with 7 or 13 white stars in a field of blue.
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  #53  
Old 24 June 2015, 04:49 PM
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CNN has a surprisingly informed and concise story on the issue.

It even has quotes from the southern secession documents, and points out that flag was somewhat out of style until the civil rights movement started making advances.

Homsetly, I don't normally expect such articles from CNN. Like most mainstream news sources they often try too hard to appear "balanced".
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  #54  
Old 24 June 2015, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Can g-we all at least get the names right? An NPR story on the controversy in South Carolina called the flag "Stars and Bars", which is not correct. The Stars and Bars has two red and one white horizontal stripes with 7 or 13 white stars in a field of blue.
Before I go on let me state that I do not fly this flag. Never have, never will. I was not born in the south, but have lived in the south for about 40 years and visited many backwoods areas of the south during that time. I have talked to a great many "Rednecks" (not a derogatory a term to most southerners I know) during that time. The following is their reasoning and not my personal beliefs.

Throughout the south the flag is referred to as "the Stars and Bars" on a regular basis. Seldom is it referred to as a "Confederate" flag. Most call it the "Rebel" flag. It is this representation of heritage that many claim when flying the flag.

ETA: Another popular reason to fly it is because it ticks people off This is also often the most racist reason to fly it.
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  #55  
Old 24 June 2015, 07:22 PM
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Do they do so out of ignorance or to be contrary?

Either way it is wrong as that is the name of a different flag of the Confederacy.
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  #56  
Old 24 June 2015, 07:50 PM
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Common usage, so I would think it's ignorance.

Heard a report on the local news last night that used the term "Stars and Bars".
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  #57  
Old 24 June 2015, 07:58 PM
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The stars and bars is the name of the flag that is, since something like 2006, the NFBSKing flag of the state of Georgia (with a little state emblem added). I don't believe there was a remotely benign reason for adopting that flag. It was a big "NFBSK you, PC liberals!"

On the other hand, I've been a little heartened by a bunch of movement about the battle flag. Ebay, Walmart and some other retailers I don't remember have all decided not to carry any merchandise bearing the flag. In addition, the Speaker of the House in Mississippi now wants to remove the battle flag from their state flag. Mississippi's is the last flag to still have a battle flag on it. That still leaves Alabama, Florida, Arkansas, and the aforementioned NFBSKing Georgia, who all have significant elements of Confederate flags, adopted to recall the Confederacy.
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  #58  
Old 24 June 2015, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
On the other hand, I've been a little heartened by a bunch of movement about the battle flag. Ebay, Walmart and some other retailers I don't remember have all decided not to carry any merchandise bearing the flag.
I'm not a fan of this only because the best way to make something popular is to take it away from people. Lots of idiots are already paranoid that Obama will take away their guns; I can see the ULs spreading now about Obama outlawing the Confederate* flag -- which will only make rednecks display it larger and more prominently.

*Stars and Bars, Rebel flag, whatever.
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  #59  
Old 24 June 2015, 10:58 PM
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If you're going to choose your actions based on whether the wingnuts will start a conspiracy theory about them, you're not going to get a lot done.

Personally, I applaud those organizations for standing up and deciding not to carry such merchandise anymore.
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  #60  
Old 24 June 2015, 11:09 PM
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We really do need a new nickname for that old rag though, since SOB - I mean SAB - is apparently incorrect.
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