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  #81  
Old 09 February 2018, 01:21 AM
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They just slap an extra $7 charge to the first pizza of the order? How does that make sense?
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  #82  
Old 09 February 2018, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
They just slap an extra $7 charge to the first pizza of the order? How does that make sense?
How does it not make sense? It costs significant resources to deliver food. It's a reasonable business model to add a delivery fee. But once you're making the trip anyway, it doesn't really cost a lot more to deliver 2 or 3 more pizzas as long as you're there. It makes sense to have a flat delivery fee regardless of the size of the order. It makes more sense than the model of just factoring it into the price of all their food at places that do a lot of delivery, making everything 30% more expensive and hoping they don't get a lot of unprofitable tiny orders or enforce a minimum order size for delivery.

In a typical situation where one account is paying for one delivery, it's just semantics to refer to that as making the first pizza more expensive vs. a delivery fee.
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  #83  
Old 09 February 2018, 02:22 AM
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The way damian worded it, I thought the $7 charge was added to all orders.
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  #84  
Old 09 February 2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
The way damian worded it, I thought the $7 charge was added to all orders.
I'm not sure I follow. I'm pretty sure he was saying that. +$7 per order. If you order more than one pizza in that same order it's still just the +$7 total. If you ordered an Uber to drive you to and from the pizza place, it would probably cost you at least that, and be way less convenient. In the case of food delivery you're hiring someone to drive to and from your house, which is worth a non-zero amount of money.

Delivery isn't really free. The alternative model is that the cost is factored into the food prices, which is both less transparent and doesn't scale properly for very small or very large orders. If you order multiple pizzas under that system you're paying for the overhead of multiple deliveries.

It used to be you could only commonly get very specific foods like pizza or chinese food delivered. But now lots of delivery services are springing up so that people can order from a broad range of places online and restaurants don't have to hire dedicated employees for deliveries. Our small city has at least 2 such services.

The one I use lets you order from around 80 different restaurants with at least 30 different types of cuisine. You pay a flat $5 delivery fee per restaurant, plus whatever their normal food prices are for whatever you want, plus you're still supposed to tip the driver. Sometimes it's very worth the convenience, and it's nice to not have to eat junk food just because you decide to order something for delivery. My favorite delivery order now is an amazing Indian Taco restaurant.
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  #85  
Old 09 February 2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Delivery isn't really free. The alternative model is that the cost is factored into the food prices, which is both less transparent and doesn't scale properly for very small or very large orders. If you order multiple pizzas under that system you're paying for the overhead of multiple deliveries.
A lot of takeaways in the UK do some variant on "Free Delivery. 10% off all collection orders!" (with a big deal made about the good value of the second option). In pizza places you tend to get special deals available on collection only too. Basically they pretend the base price is the price including delivery, and give a discount if you don't use it.
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  #86  
Old 09 February 2018, 01:24 PM
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I'm not sure I follow. I'm pretty sure he was saying that. +$7 per order. If you order more than one pizza in that same order it's still just the +$7 total.
I think crocoduck_hunter thought that the $7 charge was added to pick-up and eat-in orders too.
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  #87  
Old 09 February 2018, 01:25 PM
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A lot of takeaways in the UK do some variant on "Free Delivery. 10% off all collection orders!" (with a big deal made about the good value of the second option).
I'm reminded of an argument I had many years ago.

Back in the early 1970's, I was in college in Rochester NY, and I bought a small used refrigerator for my dorm room. The place that was selling them made a big point in their ads of Free Delivery.

But the refrigerator was significantly cheaper if you picked it up.

I told them I didn't mind paying a delivery charge, but I minded the fact that they were advertising free delivery when they were obviously charging for delivery. They kept insisting that charging x for a refrigerator that was picked up, but x + y for a refrigerator that was delivered, was not at all the same thing as charging y for delivery. (I've long since forgotten the actual amounts; which would be massively skewed by inflation anyway.)

After several rounds of that I gave up and bought the thing anyway, because they seemed to be the only people in the area in the business of supplying used miniature refrigerators to dorm rooms. But, I realize, nearly fifty years later if I happen to think of it I'm still ticked off.
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  #88  
Old 09 February 2018, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I'm reminded of an argument I had many years ago.
Yes, it is a bit sneaky, but at least in the UK they're pretty clear about it. And they also tend to make a big deal out of the collection discount, rather than the free delivery, because "free delivery" is almost standard.

(There's usually a minimum order of either £10 or £15 for delivery, though. Most places just won't deliver below that amount, but some will deliver with an extra charge. It's not a big deal as even on my own, I can easily spend more than that - if I keep some leftovers for the next day).
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  #89  
Old 09 February 2018, 02:18 PM
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My favorite delivery order now is an amazing Indian Taco restaurant.
I made the mistake of looking at the menu, and now I'm jealous. We have a very wide variety of cuisines here, but we don't have paratha tacos (yet).
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  #90  
Old 09 February 2018, 02:34 PM
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Maybe their delivery zone is broad enough that you are in it.
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  #91  
Old 09 February 2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I made the mistake of looking at the menu, and now I'm jealous. We have a very wide variety of cuisines here, but we don't have paratha tacos (yet).
Just from the concept, I was curious enough to try it, but wasn't immediately sold on it being a good idea. This is Southern California, so we have lots of good taquerias already. However, the execution is just so, so good. This is their third location, so maybe someday they'll expand to a national chain.
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  #92  
Old 09 February 2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
...They kept insisting that charging x for a refrigerator that was picked up, but x + y for a refrigerator that was delivered, was not at all the same thing as charging y for delivery. ...
There may be some reason, legal or financial, that they insisted on this. Rules vary.

Take the example of an item that you can buy for $15 with free delivery or for $10 with a $5 shipping fee. Depending on the state you're in or the state the company is in, it may be the item's sale price would be subject to sales tax, but the charge would not (or vice versa) - and saying the $15 includes shipping may change that.

My favorite instance of this is something I heard years ago about New York State - I think it's still true: a seller is not allowed to charge extra for accepting a credit card, but can give a discount for cash. In practice, this means you can charge different prices for cash or credit, but can't call it a credit card fee.
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  #93  
Old 09 February 2018, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
I think crocoduck_hunter thought that the $7 charge was added to pick-up and eat-in orders too.
That was the way I initially read it.
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  #94  
Old 09 February 2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
There may be some reason, legal or financial, that they insisted on this. Rules vary.
Possibly; but they gave no such reason. And I strongly suspect that the reason was that they figured advertising "free shipping" would get them more customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
My favorite instance of this is something I heard years ago about New York State - I think it's still true: a seller is not allowed to charge extra for accepting a credit card, but can give a discount for cash. In practice, this means you can charge different prices for cash or credit, but can't call it a credit card fee.
I also think this is true; I have the impression it was pushed through by the credit card companies quite a few years ago.

I've never run into a place that does give a cash discount that tried to pretend it wasn't happening, though.
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  #95  
Old 09 February 2018, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post

My favorite instance of this is something I heard years ago about New York State - I think it's still true: a seller is not allowed to charge extra for accepting a credit card, but can give a discount for cash. In practice, this means you can charge different prices for cash or credit, but can't call it a credit card fee.
I wonder if government agencies get a different deal?

I pay my property taxes via Official Payments and they tack on a convenience fee, which is above the amount due on the taxes.

Even the IRS accepts payments via Official Payments.

On the other hand, I had a deficiency to Social Security Administration, due to an overpayment of Social Security benefits and they accepted a credit card payment with no additional charge.




https://www.officialpayments.com/hp_faq_gl_cf.jsp
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  #96  
Old 10 February 2018, 12:39 AM
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UL101, I don't think that's contradictory.

Unless I'm understanding it wrong, Official Payments isn't a credit card. And companies can charge you for paying online, whether you use a card or paypal or a bank authorization to do so -- it's not a fee, or not phrased as a fee, for using a card; it's a fee for using the online system.

And you didn't pay SSA a fee for using a card to pay them.

So, while I don't know whether government agencies are exempt, your examples still look to me as if private and government organizations have the same option.

ETA: Plus which, I don't know whether it's a state or national law. If it's state law, Florida might not have that law.
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  #97  
Old 10 February 2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I made the mistake of looking at the menu, and now I'm jealous. We have a very wide variety of cuisines here, but we don't have paratha tacos (yet).
Whenever we watch the channels we get that are out of California I get jealous! I can't think of the names off hand but there are several restaurants that seem to be based either only in California or anyway on the West Coast that sound wonderful and are unlikely to ever make their way to Ottawa!
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  #98  
Old 10 February 2018, 06:31 PM
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A number of states have laws against charging customers fees to use credit cards, though some allow cash discounts. I think at least some credit card companies prohibit those surcharges in their contracts with merchants too; I'm not sure whether cash discounts violate those agreements. I agree it's a bit slippery, but I do think there's a difference between saying "here's the price--oh, wait, you're paying by credit card? Then it's more" and saying "here's the price--oh, hey, do you want a discount?" The former seems less honest, at least in situations where it's not expected and understood ahead of time that this is how things are done.
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  #99  
Old 11 February 2018, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
UL101, I don't think that's contradictory.

Unless I'm understanding it wrong, Official Payments isn't a credit card. And companies can charge you for paying online, whether you use a card or paypal or a bank authorization to do so -- it's not a fee, or not phrased as a fee, for using a card; it's a fee for using the online system.
I understand Official Payments isn't a credit card. So far, PayPal has never charged me above the amount charged by the merchant and I've never paid my bank for the use of the bill pay system, even if that payment involves a paper check and mailing the check.

Official Payments is calling it a convenience fee and they state that the fee covers the cost of the payment transaction.

I think what happens is that the government jurisdiction is not allowed to give the payer a discount, therefore the amount turned over to the government jurisdiction has to match the tax bill, and Official Payments isn't going to eat the credit card transaction costs.




Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
And you didn't pay SSA a fee for using a card to pay them.

So, while I don't know whether government agencies are exempt, your examples still look to me as if private and government organizations have the same option.
Yep, I understand, and since Social Security Administration did not charge me a fee, it seems there could be some flexibility. One difference perhaps is that Social Security accepted my credit card payment directly without the use of another private payment process and they obviously ate the credit card transaction fee.

Also consider that USPS does not charge for the use of a credit card nor does it give a discount for cash.

Our local tax collector's office also handles driver licenses on behalf of the state and I noticed that they added at $6.25 service fee for my daughter's driver license.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
ETA: Plus which, I don't know whether it's a state or national law. If it's state law, Florida might not have that law.
Until 2016, my credit card billing address was never Florida and I'd been using Official Payments before that date.
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  #100  
Old 11 February 2018, 02:06 PM
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UL, I guess I don't understand what your argument, or your question, is.

You were charged a transaction fee, by a government agency, for using an online payment method. You weren't charged a transaction fee, by some private companies and by some other government agencies, for using online payment methods, or for using credit cards when you weren't using online payment methods.

What does any of this have to do with whether you can be charged a fee that's specifically stated to be a fee for using a credit card?

I don't think anyone's mentioned a law either requiring or forbidding any company or agency to charge a fee, or to not charge a fee, for paying online. But a fee for paying online is not the same thing as a fee for using a card.
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