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Old 15 November 2015, 01:05 AM
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Read This! 'Nazi Grandma' put in jail for Holocaust denial

A long-time right-wing extremist has been sentenced to prison for incitement of hatred for statements she made denying the Holocaust.

http://www.thelocal.de/20151113/87-y...nced-to-prison
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Old 15 November 2015, 02:53 PM
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I don't particularly like laws that criminalize unpopular beliefs, but I understand why they're necessary in Germany.

That said, apart from the morality of criminalizing Holocaust denial, it never ceases to astound me that anyone is physically even CAPABLE of such thought. How in the hell do you ignore the mountains of evidence, INCLUDING PICTURES, that the Holocaust happened?
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Old 15 November 2015, 02:57 PM
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I think the standard response for deniers is that the pictures were of Soviet POW camps or something.
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Old 15 November 2015, 03:04 PM
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I guess it's the same mentality that insists that Sandy Hook never happened or that the government was behind 9/11 or that Hoover had Kennedy killed. Ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, assume anyone with a firsthand account is lying and believe that you and you alone have somehow seen through the smokescreen to find the truth that the rest of us are too blind and or stupid to see .
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Old 15 November 2015, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post
I don't particularly like laws that criminalize unpopular beliefs, but I understand why they're necessary in Germany.
I understand the reasoning, too, but do you think they are actually a necessity? Couldn't the money going into the prosecution of forbidden speech be put into education? Or something?

I don't want to oversimplify the issue, but I doubt imprisoning bigoted old ladies does anything more to latent racisism than stoke the fires. There must be better ways to change cultural consciousness.
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Old 16 November 2015, 12:43 AM
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I guess it's the same mentality that insists that Sandy Hook never happened or that the government was behind 9/11 or that Hoover had Kennedy killed. Ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, assume anyone with a firsthand account is lying and believe that you and you alone have somehow seen through the smokescreen to find the truth that the rest of us are too blind and or stupid to see .
And I find with these people that they are themselves pretty stupid. Too stupid to see how stupid they are. Not just to go "nfbsk they are stupid" but I think most of us, whatever our level of intelligence recognize we have gaps in our knowledge or somethings we don't have the ability to understand, but accept and trust those that do. But certain people go "I don't understand it, therefore it must be a lie" Or "They isn't how I view the world, therefore they must be lying"
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Old 16 November 2015, 12:12 PM
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I understand the reasoning, too, but do you think they are actually a necessity? Couldn't the money going into the prosecution of forbidden speech be put into education? Or something?
Speaking for myself, it's more that I feel entirely unqualified to second-guess the German people on how to handle this issue.

Frankly, I'm not optimistic that education would change the minds of someone like the OP woman or her cohorts.
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Old 16 November 2015, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post
I don't particularly like laws that criminalize unpopular beliefs, but I understand why they're necessary in Germany.

That said, apart from the morality of criminalizing Holocaust denial, it never ceases to astound me that anyone is physically even CAPABLE of such thought. How in the hell do you ignore the mountains of evidence, INCLUDING PICTURES, that the Holocaust happened?
They don't deny the camps existed. They don't deny the round ups. They don't deny many deaths. They deny soap and lampshades made from the bodies of Jews, and they point out that Dachau has been shown not to have been an extermination camp. So based on those "lies," then the whole thing must be a lie as well. They point out the valid problems of accurate counting and estimations and insist that the number of deaths are grossly exaggerated.

Then they go on to point out alleged problems with the gas chambers etc that most people aren't knowledgeable enough about to counter. They are not dumb and do build a credible case. Well, if you ignore the mountains of valid evidence.
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Old 16 November 2015, 03:32 PM
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The patent papers for the gas chambers are held at Texas A&M University.

ETA Going on memory here. Google did not find a reference to this. Such documents may have been sent to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.

Last edited by RichardM; 16 November 2015 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 16 November 2015, 04:49 PM
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Speaking for myself, it's more that I feel entirely unqualified to second-guess the German people on how to handle this issue.

Frankly, I'm not optimistic that education would change the minds of someone like the OP woman or her cohorts.
I don't think education would change her mind, but I don't think prison will either. My question is whether criminalizing the vocalization of her opinions will actually do anything to stop racism in the country, where there are young people right now in the process of deciding how to view the past.

As for questioning Germany's laws, I agree that it's difficult for an outsider to understand the complexity of the situation. But, speaking for myself, I think having a conversation about how another democracy with a violent history of racial persecution is choosing to handle free speech, hate speech, and racism is something that is particulaly relevant to Americans right now.
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Old 16 November 2015, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
The patent papers for the gas chambers are held at Texas A&M University.

ETA Going on memory here. Google did not find a reference to this. Such documents may have been sent to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.
Just as an aside, there's a documentary called "Engineering Evil" that I believe covers the patents, though I'm not certain to what degree. It might be of some interest.

~Psihala
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Old 16 November 2015, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
... I think having a conversation about how another democracy with a violent history of racial persecution is choosing to handle free speech, hate speech, and racism is something that is particulaly relevant to Americans right now.
This is one of the wisest things I've read today.
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Old 16 November 2015, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
As for questioning Germany's laws, I agree that it's difficult for an outsider to understand the complexity of the situation. But, speaking for myself, I think having a conversation about how another democracy with a violent history of racial persecution is choosing to handle free speech, hate speech, and racism is something that is particulaly relevant to Americans right now.
I agree the conversation is relevant, although I don't think we're in much danger of criminalizing speech.

ETA: And I think there are plenty of other examples besides Germany that would be more relevant to that conversation.
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Old 16 November 2015, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I agree the conversation is relevant, although I don't think we're in much danger of criminalizing speech.

ETA: And I think there are plenty of other examples besides Germany that would be more relevant to that conversation.
What is bolded is perhaps what the conversation should be about.**

While there are other examples besides Germany, I think the US could look at Germany as a nation that has looked at its past and has structured its laws to ensure that it does not happen again. The US, on the other hand, has structured its laws such that it is very easy to maintain the issues.

**It need not be about criminalising speech, but the US is the one country in the west with such a systemic problem, and it is the one country in the west without robust minority protections. The discussion should be about how to protect the minorities, including hate speech laws.
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Old 17 November 2015, 01:10 AM
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Ponder Support for Punishing Global Warming Foes

Global warming advocates are calling for the prosecution of groups who disagree with them, and New York State has taken it a step further by investigating Exxon Mobil for refusing to play ball with the popular scientific theory.

But 68% of Likely U.S. Voters oppose the government investigating and prosecuting scientists and others including major corporations who question global warming. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 17% favor such prosecutions. Fifteen percent (15%) are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Just over one-in-four Democrats (27%), however, favor prosecuting those who don’t agree with global warming. Only 11% of Republicans and 12% of voters not affiliated with either major party agree.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...l_warming_foes
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  #16  
Old 17 November 2015, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Global warming advocates are calling for the prosecution of groups who disagree with them, and New York State has taken it a step further by investigating Exxon Mobil for refusing to play ball with the popular scientific theory.
ATNM, did you post in the wrong thread? Or is this a reference to free speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
And I think there are plenty of other examples besides Germany that would be more relevant to that conversation.
I was confused about why you would say that in a thread about a German woman and the German legal system, but now that I've seen the direction the KKK costume thread went in, I think I understand.

Is there another country that's a better example? It seems to me the extremes of Germany make it an interesting study, if one can avoid the hyperbolic nature of Godwinizing.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 17 November 2015 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 17 November 2015, 01:59 AM
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I was responding to UEL, a la:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I agree the conversation is relevant, although I don't think we're in much danger of criminalizing speech.

ETA: And I think there are plenty of other examples besides Germany that would be more relevant to that conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
What is bolded is perhaps what the conversation should be about.**
I found it very chilling that a group of scientists, and then according to this poll over 25% of one of the major US parties, would advocate criminalizing speech they do not agree with.
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Old 17 November 2015, 02:22 AM
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Did you actually read the New York Times article dealing with the issues involving Exxon-Mobile? The investigation is about whether Exxon-Mobile lied to investors as to the results of its own studies into the effects of Global Warming and how negative results would actually affect the company's bottom line. It has nothing to do with "criminalizing speech they do not agree with."

~Psihala
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Old 17 November 2015, 02:28 AM
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The first link within the article states it far more accurately than "advocating criminalizing speech they do not agree with."

Quote:
Scientists from several universities and research centers even asked Obama to use the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) to prosecute groups that “have knowingly deceived the American people about the risks of climate change, as a means to forestall America’s response to climate change.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/09/17/sc...#ixzz3riQntPpr
And the questions asked the public in the Rasmussen study were really poorly written, IMO.

Quote:
1* Is the scientific debate about global warming over?

2* Should the government investigate and prosecute scientists and others including major corporations who question global warming?
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Old 17 November 2015, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
I was confused about why you would say that in a thread about a German woman and the German legal system, but now that I've seen the direction the KKK costume thread went in, I think I understand.
And now I don't get your reference to that other thread.

I wasn't talking just about the OP instance, but about the larger issue of potentially criminalizing speech.

Quote:
Is there another country that's a better example? It seems to me the extremes of Germany make it an interesting study, if one can avoid the hyperbolic nature of Godwinizing.
Germany's situation is unique, so I don't think it's particularly helpful in that larger conversation.
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