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  #101  
Old 25 May 2011, 04:14 AM
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Mickey Blue Mickey Blue is offline
 
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I was more referring to the my opinion of the bailouts initially, as in when they were first proposed (prior to the banks misusing them). I didn't have the level of economic understanding to really know whether it was a good or bad idea.


As for the latter, yes you are right, there is lots of legislation that seems to be made to look good to people who have an axe to grind with poor people (or more specifically I guess poor people on government services of some kind) that is not only not needed but would certainly cost far more then it would ever save even if you ignored all the other things wrong with it (and since they are proposed to 'save money' that means they fail and there is no reason to institute them).

But really none of my initial statement is about that. I have no problem with people using the money given to them (with I guess a few limitations) to buy what they want. If they are really good at making inexpensive meals and can afford to periodically have a fancy one its none of my business, in fact good for them. I'm just saying the more visceral reaction I get which I can acknowledge isn't 'right', nor do I ever attack anybody or propose we somehow legislate it away. But I can simply honestly admit the reaction.

Basically I feel like Troodon (at least in his most recent post above mine), I get a twinge of frustration on some deeper level because it makes me wonder "Is this person buying up lobster and steak scamming me?" and I think we all hate the idea of being taken for a ride, particularly in economic times like this. I also agree with him that the issue has been so focused on that it isn't just a twinge of frustration in many people but rather a rage that acts as if all the problems in this nation are a direct result of somebody scamming the government for a few hundred bucks.

I have little doubt a part of it is to distract people from the real drains on the economy and focus in on a group that has a very hard time defending itself (obviously another part is once you start the cycle you can just play into it for votes. Once you've established that "The poor are parasitic life forms that are sponging off your hard earned dollars while they play their PlayStation 3s and eat lobster tail" you can then evoke feel good (for like minded people) legislation that proposes to punish them in some way and earn support).

-MB
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  #102  
Old 25 May 2011, 12:20 PM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troodon View Post
In fact, I'm actually worried by how a lot of people in the USA have been turned from feeling a twinge of frustration at seeing something like this receipt (which I think is natural) to frothing rage at their own perceived exploitation by the poor. It's a lot like the way many people want to cut foreign aid to balance the budget when in fact foreign aid spending is relatively tiny compared to the real causes of the deficit. There are plenty of powerful and unscrupulous people who benefit when public outrage is focused elsewhere.
Yes, there are, and some of them are very skilled at pulling the strings to make that happen.

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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Cafeterias? Ha! Armatures.
I think you mean "amateurs." These are armatures.
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  #103  
Old 25 May 2011, 02:26 PM
FullMetal FullMetal is offline
 
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The more I think of this, the more I'm amazed at the polarization and the stereotyping of the people who are on this form of assistance.

a few years back, I was let go from a good paying job, and was unemployed for about 9-10 months. I drew pogey during some of those months, I had a job in fast food that I was forced to quit. (getting the job and quitting canceled me being accepted for EI. biggest mistake I made) I was forced to quit because they refused to give me time off to go to an interview for a better job (in the industry I had spent a lot of money on training to get into). My being on assistance had nothing to do with my inability, or lack of desire to work. In fact it was used for the main reason EI exists, to smooth over times when through no fault of your own you're out of work.

Not everyone on assistance is working poor, or uneducated, or unwilling to work. A lot of people could just find themselves in a situation where things are out of their hands.

Is it entirely possible that this individual who purchased these lobsters and steaks was celebrating getting a job that would get them off food stamps, and wanted to use up the last of the benefits before they were removed? Because they too were bitter about people abusing the system, and didn't want the money they "earned" by being unemployed or underemployed being used by some abuser? (a not uncommon sense of entitlement...)
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  #104  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:04 PM
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gopher gopher is offline
 
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Using the poor as a political whipping boy is easy and will appeal to a certain kind of person.

"You lost your job? The poor are making taxes to high, we had to outsource"
"Your kid's schools suck? The poor are popping out a dozen kids each"

It's the same bigotted, fascist, anti-humanitarian shit we see posted about immigrants, blacks, latino's, Mexicans etc.

Why not at least be honest?

"We hate anyone who doesn't look like us, doesn't talk like us, doesn't vote like us"
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  #105  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:20 PM
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GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana Ng View Post
A proposal to ensure a foster children never receive a new pair of sneakers or pants.
Wait... what?

I could see legislation to make sure that child was being taken care of due to the stipend paid to a foster family.
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  #106  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:34 PM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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"Used clothes or hand-me-downs are good enough for foster kids. Why should my hard-earned money be used to pay for brand new stuff?"
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  #107  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:35 PM
quink quink is offline
 
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I won't lie - I sometimes get the gut reaction. Not so much with this receipt, but I've identified it before in myself with other situations. I've been dirt poor and didn't get help - more because I was in a deep depression at the time and it was easier to just not eat than to think about going through the steps to get assistance - and sometimes the thought that 'I was able to work three jobs to keep my head above the water, so why can't they?' invades my head.

Even though I logically know that every situation is different, and that there was a decent amount of luck to go along with hard work in improving my own situation, there's still that little bit of "what would I do differently if I were in their situation" in the back of my mind. I do my best to identify that feeling and squash it when it pops up, but I'm not surprised that it grows into resentment in a lot of people. I don't think it's right, but I think many see it as an either/or decision, and if they've been lucky enough not to end up in poverty they assume it's because they made good choices while those dirty poor people didn't. A right wing friend of mine insisted he could think of a way out for everyone that didn't involve government assistance. Working 16 hours a day at two jobs? Take out an accounting book from the library, read it in your spare time on the bus or at home before bed, and then apply for accounting jobs. It's that easy!

Besides, I don't think you can ever judge from a snapshot. That obese person in the store with a cart full of chips and pop might be planning for a party (I know I always got worried when I was overweight and buying something outside of the norm... would the person behind me in line assume that I was taking this entire chocolate cake home to eat for dinner?). When I was in one of my worst financial spots, I took a vacation. Someone looking at my budget would have called me wasteful and irresponsible, but it was a very special occasion for a friend's wedding, I ran an extremely tight budget the whole time, and my dad helped me pay for my plane ticket. Plus, I had just started the new job that eventually turned everything around, so I knew that even though it was really tight at that time, things would improve in a few months once I got caught up.

Finally, I think the other big lesson I learned in repairing my financial situation is that you're still a human being and you should try to live as much of a normal life as possible. You live within your means, but a person really does need more than kraft dinner and white bread. I always made the mistake of getting over aggressive on the debt payments and leaving myself almost no living budget. It made me sick (dirt cheap foods don't work well with a diabetic diet) and it didn't help because eventually I'd run out of food and end up going for fast food to tide me over. Once I redid my budget so that reasonable living expenses were a priority, the rest of my budget fell into place. It's like dieting - a starvation diet will eventually fail, but a more reasonable one that you can sustain will work. That doesn't mean buying lobster every week, but there should be room for it occasionally as long as it's planned.

Maybe the receipt-owner really is gaming the system, but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
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  #108  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:35 PM
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BringTheNoise BringTheNoise is offline
 
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Oh, it was real - although now withdrawn:

Foster Children Would Be Allowed To Get Clothing Only From Second Hand Stores
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  #109  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:37 PM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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Quote:
Casswell says the plan will save the state money, though it isn’t clear how much the state spends on clothing for foster children or how much could be saved this way.


ETA:

Quote:
“I never had anything new,” Caswell says. “I got all the hand-me-downs."
Yeah, those kids in foster care clearly have it so much better than you did, poor thing, growing up in (apparently) an intact family.

Ungrateful a**.
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  #110  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:44 PM
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I'm trying to work out how giving people the same amount of money, but then limiting where they can spend it, could even theoretically save money. So far, I've got nothing.
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  #111  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:46 PM
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It's not based on logic, it's based on the guy's apparent belief that giving foster kids new clothes somehow rips him off -- apparently because he, poor thing, had to make do with hand-me-down clothes and real parents. (No offense to foster parents)
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  #112  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:48 PM
fitz1980 fitz1980 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullMetal View Post
Is it entirely possible that this individual who purchased these lobsters and steaks was celebrating getting a job that would get them off food stamps, and wanted to use up the last of the benefits before they were removed? Because they too were bitter about people abusing the system, and didn't want the money they "earned" by being unemployed or underemployed being used by some abuser? (a not uncommon sense of entitlement...)
That's for sure. I was bartending in Boca Raton, FL back in 2008 when the economy crashed I heard several young professional people who had lost their jobs bragging about they were now on unemployment and planned to ride it out for as long as possible. There was a lot of "because I earned it by by being so productive for all of these years" type of talk. I'm sure that some of it was just bitterness over having lost their jobs through no fault of their own, but there did seem to be a real undercurrent of elitist 'I'm an educated, white collar worker who didn't deserve to lose his job; not like those low income, uneducated people who just like to sponge off the system because they're lazy.'
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  #113  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:50 PM
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AnglRdr AnglRdr is offline
 
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Before I was old enough to work more than JTPA* summer jobs, I spent some time in foster care, and it was the first time in a very long time I had clothes that were not only meant for girls, but the first time I'd had new clothes.

But it wasn't NFBSKing worth being in foster care for.

_______________
*JTPA = Job Training Partnership Act, which was a program for low-income kids to get summer jobs, working with government agencies/non-profits.
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  #114  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:50 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
Judging people by one purchase isn't helpful anyway. One week I bought with food stamps a frozen pizza, a twelve pack of coke, and ice cream at one store and frozen peas, carrots, bananas, watermelon slices, whole wheat rolls, and yogurt at another. Am I good for one purchase and not the other?

Sister "the stuff was on sale at different stores" Ray
See, you've committed the crime of being poor. That means you should never have any treats EVER.

Only nutritionally complete gruel (like the stuff they fed the crew on Alien) for you! And, no, you may NOT have some more!
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  #115  
Old 25 May 2011, 03:53 PM
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GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
Words fail me.

Regarding the saved money, a poster above (don't recall who and am too lazy to search) said she went off WIC because of the humiliation. So there is some saved money.
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  #116  
Old 25 May 2011, 04:06 PM
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Sylvanz Sylvanz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I think you mean "amateurs." These are armatures.
Ooops! Damn spell check.
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  #117  
Old 25 May 2011, 05:32 PM
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Mickey Blue Mickey Blue is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
See, you've committed the crime of being poor. That means you should never have any treats EVER.

Only nutritionally complete gruel (like the stuff they fed the crew on Alien) for you! And, no, you may NOT have some more!
If its good enough for the colonial marines then its good enough for our nations poor... Or do you hate the troops? Let me guess, you think that Xenomorphs are misunderstood and probably support buildings schools for them or something.

-MB
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  #118  
Old 25 May 2011, 05:37 PM
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Sister Ray Sister Ray is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
See, you've committed the crime of being poor. That means you should never have any treats EVER.

Only nutritionally complete gruel (like the stuff they fed the crew on Alien) for you! And, no, you may NOT have some more!
I sometimes wonder how they define "treats." If I buy a box of Triscuts and a hunk of cheese to put on them, is that a treat or a nutritious product?

Sister "and why are they mutually exclusive?" Ray
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  #119  
Old 25 May 2011, 05:41 PM
FullMetal FullMetal is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
If its good enough for the colonial marines then its good enough for our nations poor... Or do you hate the troops? Let me guess, you think that Xenomorphs are misunderstood and probably support buildings schools for them or something.

-MB
You're thinking Aliens, not Alien, in Alien, they were simply a sleeper towing ship for the Weylan corporation, a corporate crew not a marine crew. No colonial marines were on board that ship. the marines picked up the sole surviving escape pod in Aliens.
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  #120  
Old 25 May 2011, 06:14 PM
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Mickey Blue Mickey Blue is offline
 
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The bottom line really is Ryda wants to nuke the poor..

-M "its the only way to be sure.." B
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