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  #21  
Old 27 October 2015, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dasla View Post
This is why many people ignore this advice. Because the way it reported confuses them. And then they distrust it.
It's also because dietary advice, even "official" dietary advice coming from governmental and serious medical sources, changes wildly from time to time. After all, they spent what was it, thirty or forty years telling everybody that trans-fat margarines were much better for everybody than butter. Eggs have been an ideal food, and a terrible hazard, and OK after all, over about the same span. Et considerably cetera.

I suspect there are three underlying problems: one, that even those specializing in the field don't understand everything about human nutrition issues all that well yet; two, that different people do better on different diets; and three, that people don't eat specific foods or nutrients in isolation, and that the effect of any specific food or nutrient may well depend on what else is in the particular person's diet. Oh yes, and four, that a lot of these things rely on self-reporting of diets over a long period of time; which is bound to include a lot of inaccuracies. Plus five, that headline writers take a study full of caveats and questions and stick a massively misleading headline on it.

That doesn't mean that we don't know anything about the effect of diets on health -- we have figured out how to prevent scurvy, after all; and I think there's little doubt that a diet made up entirely of bacon and white bread wouldn't be good for anybody. But it does mean that such news stories need to be taken with, um, a grain of salt. Which may or may not be good for you, depending on who you are, what work you did today in what weather, and what else you ate today.
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  #22  
Old 27 October 2015, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kia View Post
My cousin is a dietitian.
But keep the focus of your diet on a variety veges and fruit...
What's her advice for those of us who don't like vegetables and fruit? Seriously. I'd like to know.

Seaboe
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  #23  
Old 27 October 2015, 03:01 PM
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Buy plenty of medical and life insurance for when you get bowl cancer?
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  #24  
Old 27 October 2015, 03:06 PM
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Well, I'm hoping more along the lines of alternatives, maybe grains and such.

Seaboe
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  #25  
Old 27 October 2015, 04:44 PM
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TL, your last line made me laugh out loud.
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  #26  
Old 27 October 2015, 05:11 PM
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TL, your last line made me laugh out loud.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
What's her advice for those of us who don't like vegetables and fruit? Seriously. I'd like to know.
Can you identify what it is that you don't like about the vegetables and fruit that you've eaten, and use that to try to find some that you do like?

I understand that it's frustrating and not useful for someone to say "you'd like x if you just tried it the right way!"; but there are so many different vegetables and fruits, with so many differences in both textures and flavors between species as well as between cultivars and between cooking techniques, that maybe there are some out there that you would like.

Alternatively: zucchini bread and the like? that is, vegetables and fruits added into things, in such a fashion that they don't taste like the vegetables/fruits are even there.

Last edited by thorny locust; 27 October 2015 at 05:20 PM. Reason: never mind runon sentences, I seemed to have runon words
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  #27  
Old 27 October 2015, 05:27 PM
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On the radio this morning they were discussing the fact that now that processed meat is on the WHO's list of carcinogens, it may require a warning label under California's Proposition 65. Technically California maintains a separate list of cancer causing substances from the WHO, but historically if something is on the WHO list it always ends up on the California list.
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  #28  
Old 27 October 2015, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
But what is obvious is often incorrect in science and health. The question is whether it's supported by the evidence.
Reading the article made the headline obviously wrong. But yes. If they actually had found that close to 1 in 5 eaters of processed meat would end up with bowel cancer, that would be something worth highlighting. But even if that were the case, the meat would still have benefits--protein, minerals, etc.--whereas perhaps the only benefit of smoking might be appetite suppression, and then only if that's an issue for you.

I pretty much have to eat red meat sometimes or I'll get anemic. I don't know of anyone who has a medical problem that can be solved by nicotine.

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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I understand that it's frustrating and not useful for someone to say "you'd like x if you just tried it the right way!"; but there are so many different vegetables and fruits, with so many differences in both textures and flavors between species as well as between cultivars and between cooking techniques, that maybe there are some out there that you would like.

Alternatively: zucchini bread and the like? that is, vegetables and fruits added into things, in such a fashion that they don't taste like the vegetables/fruits are even there.
There are whole cookbooks devoted to this--to adding pureed veggies to everything from chicken tenders to macaroni and cheese. And if that is too much trouble, you can, say, buy the spinach or carrot pasta instead of the regular. There are ways to get veggies that don't involve eating a big salad.
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  #29  
Old 28 October 2015, 12:13 AM
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I'm not sure zucchini bread and the like would confer the same benefits as eating less processed vegetables. We know that vegetables are healthful, and we have some ideas about some of the specific benefits they may impart, but we don't necessarily know what about them, specifically, makes you live longer. If it's about the fiber, you can probably get that from regular bread. If it's about the low sugar content, you probably won't get that if you make it into a bread. If it's some as-yet-not-fully-understood phytonutrient, you might lose some of it in the baking process. If it's just about being the kind of person who makes a habit of eating healthy...you get the idea.
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  #30  
Old 28 October 2015, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
I'm not sure zucchini bread and the like would confer the same benefits as eating less processed vegetables.
That's a point; but if the alternative is not eating any vegetables at all, there might be enough benefit to, comparatively, amount to something.
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  #31  
Old 28 October 2015, 12:56 AM
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Yup, I personally love veggies. But I think you have to work up to certain things. I had to train myself to eat bell peppers, in particular, over time, beginning with them chopped very fine and cooked until very soft, and now I can eat them raw in strips, and a lot of other ways.

So if someone is asking, "How can I eat veggies?" my first advice is to start eating them. But that has a variety of possibilities for how it is done. And I'm pretty confident that once someone begins making such efforts to expand what one eats, the expansion will continue. And then they'll achieve a much more balanced diet, just not all at once.

My diet is very well balanced now, and I do the bulk of my shopping in the produce section, but in college...well.
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  #32  
Old 28 October 2015, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
. And I'm pretty confident that once someone begins making such efforts to expand what one eats, the expansion will continue. And then they'll achieve a much more balanced diet, just not all at once.
And I am confident at the age of 45 and having at various times having a vegetable garden and also having greek, italian, chinese and thai friends and having eaten in their homes and restuarants and having tried many ways of preparing veges. As well as having done Home Ec untill year 12 that know what I like and what I don't like thank you very much.

Last edited by Dasla; 28 October 2015 at 01:39 AM.
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  #33  
Old 28 October 2015, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's also because dietary advice, even "official" dietary advice coming from governmental and serious medical sources, changes wildly from time to time. After all, they spent what was it, thirty or forty years telling everybody that trans-fat margarines were much better for everybody than butter. Eggs have been an ideal food, and a terrible hazard, and OK after all, over about the same span. Et considerably cetera.
Yeah I remember in a Home Economics class at high school a fellow student get the teacher to sign a note saying that margarine was better because she (the student) prefered margarine but the mother insisted they have butter because she thought it was better. I remember it so well as I prefer butter to margarine and it worried me a bit at the time. Now I relise that whatever is better I don't eat enough of it to be a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I suspect there are three underlying problems: one, that even those specializing in the field don't understand everything about human nutrition issues all that well yet; two, that different people do better on different diets; and three, that people don't eat specific foods or nutrients in isolation, and that the effect of any specific food or nutrient may well depend on what else is in the particular person's diet. Oh yes, and four, that a lot of these things rely on self-reporting of diets over a long period of time; which is bound to include a lot of inaccuracies. Plus five, that headline writers take a study full of caveats and questions and stick a massively misleading headline on it.

That doesn't mean that we don't know anything about the effect of diets on health -- we have figured out how to prevent scurvy, after all; and I think there's little doubt that a diet made up entirely of bacon and white bread wouldn't be good for anybody. But it does mean that such news stories need to be taken with, um, a grain of salt. Which may or may not be good for you, depending on who you are, what work you did today in what weather, and what else you ate today.
We had a discussion here a while back that a try scienctifically rigourous study of what diet is best what be impossible and unethical. A double blind over several lifetimes on two diverse groups who had to stick to strictly to a particular diet for their entire life. All we can do is look at what diet is more commonly followed in various nations and see how that go. So therefore, in recent times the Mediterranean diet and various asian diets have one approval. But they aren't a genetically diverse group. Maybe Asians do better on an asian diet because that is what works for them. Maybe race doesn't make a difference. We just don't know.
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  #34  
Old 28 October 2015, 01:49 AM
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One of the things that led to my becoming and remaining a vegetarian is that I never did like the taste or texture of most meats (including poultry, fish and seafood). Plenty of people told me that I'd like steak, or chicken, or pork chops, or whatever, if I just had them prepared properly/differently, or gave them more of a chance. I tried, but there are fundamental things about meat that I find distasteful, and that aren't changed by how the meat is prepared. Maybe there are fundamental things about veggies, or about certain broad categories of vegetables, that some people just won't like no matter what.
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  #35  
Old 28 October 2015, 02:00 AM
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That may be true. But the question asked was, "What's her advice for those of us who don't like vegetables and fruit? Seriously. I'd like to know."

Although that isn't "her" advice, per se, it is the general advice given by nutritionists, in my experience. But what I said is not given to people not asking for it. If you do not want advice on how to eat vegetables if you do not like them, then don't take any. And if you don't like advice you're given, you are, of course, free to ignore it.
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  #36  
Old 28 October 2015, 02:12 AM
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FWIW, Avril, I wasn't responding to you, just considering a possibility.
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  #37  
Old 28 October 2015, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
That may be true. But the question asked was, "What's her advice for those of us who don't like vegetables and fruit? Seriously. I'd like to know."

Although that isn't "her" advice, per se, it is the general advice given by nutritionists, in my experience. But what I said is not given to people not asking for it. If you do not want advice on how to eat vegetables if you do not like them, then don't take any. And if you don't like advice you're given, you are, of course, free to ignore it.
Sorry Avril I shouldn't have responded like that. But I have just finished at a workplace where certain workmates justed loved to give me advice that boiled down to "you don't know what you like, you just aren't doing it right" And it hit a sore spot. It was more then just diet and one day I am going to have a whole thread on the "advice" they gave me. I am just waiting for certain things to happen.
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  #38  
Old 28 October 2015, 01:20 PM
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I also meant to post that 500g of processed meat is quite a bit. I weighed the half rasher of bacon I have in the freezer and it weighed less then 50g. I have also occasionally bought salami for pizza or antipasta platters and asked for 500g and then relised I had far to much. So unless you are eating bacon and ham etc everyday (and I am sure that some people do) I think many would struggle to eat 500g a week.
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  #39  
Old 28 October 2015, 01:59 PM
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I don't know of anyone who has a medical problem that can be solved by nicotine.
AIUI, ulcerative colitis is one disease that is helped by nicotine. I don't know that they recommend smoking to anyone to help alleviate it (although I remember an episode of House where he prescribed cigarettes to a guy), but there is a beneficial effect.
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  #40  
Old 28 October 2015, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
Yup, I had to train myself to eat bell peppers
I never did, and still don't, much like them at the green stage; which is the only way I ran into them for probably my first thirty years. Ripe red and gold sweet peppers, however, I'm wild about. The flavor is entirely different; both actually sweet, and much more complex flavor. (For somebody having a texture issue, however, that wouldn't help; the texture is only slightly different.)

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Originally Posted by Dasla View Post
having at various times having a vegetable garden and also having greek, italian, chinese and thai friends and having eaten in their homes and restuarants and having tried many ways of preparing veges. As well as having done Home Ec untill year 12 that know what I like and what I don't like
Yup, that's a really thorough exploration.

But there are people who think they don't like vegetables or fruits when they've only had them overcooked into mush; or only had flavorless shipping varieties; or only tried the half dozen most common species. Kohlrabi, avocado, and green beans to my mouth don't taste remotely similar, and their textures are entirely different, especially when eaten raw or lightly cooked. Ditto apples, kiwifruit, and raspberries -- and most of the fruit and many of the vegetables in most groceries is entirely tasteless and much of it with the wrong texture for its species, because it's been bred for shipping purposes and then on top of that harvested unripe.

And it took me probably thirty years to gradually learn to like eggplant; but I like it a lot, now. (Still working on the hot peppers; but improving.) However, I don't expect everybody to put thirty years into learning to like something! And if anybody had tried to force me to eat eggplant when I was six, I'd most likely still hate it.

tl/dr: bugging people about what they eat or don't eat is annoying and likely to be at most ineffective and in many cases to have the opposite result of what's intended. And many people have come to their current diets based on lots of evidence. But some people have leapt to conclusions based on what they don't realize is insufficient and/or misleading evidence.
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