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  #21  
Old 03 May 2008, 02:03 PM
Jonny T
 
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Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
This is like playing "Where's Waldo", only with black people. Where are you seeing the black woman, EQT?
here.im in ur post, padding ur chars
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  #22  
Old 03 May 2008, 02:08 PM
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Disney

I can't believe no one has pointed out that Mickey and Minnie are black. (Not to mention Goofy. Donald is definitely white, though, in more ways than one.)
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  #23  
Old 03 May 2008, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Even if it was true, it's over 30 years ago. Get over it. Maybe she should fight against some injustice that is still happening.
How do you know she doesn't?
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  #24  
Old 03 May 2008, 04:52 PM
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here.im in ur post, padding ur chars
Boom, there's your smoking gun.
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  #25  
Old 03 May 2008, 05:57 PM
KKHB
 
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Even if it was true, it's over 30 years ago. Get over it. Maybe she should fight against some injustice that is still happening.
How do you know she doesn't?
You are right, of course, we have no way of knowing which, if any, injustices she fights or how. But I share the sentiment that maybe she should fight against some injustice that is still happening (whether she already is or not) rather than fighting against one that isn't, in a way that will have no bearing on it. Not taking (her) kids to Disneyland will have absolutely no effect on what happened (or didn't) 30 years ago. Any change she hopes to accomplish (ending segregation?) has already happened, but there are still other areas in the same vein that could really use (her) support (even if she is already giving it).
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  #26  
Old 03 May 2008, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonny T View Post
here.im in ur post, padding ur chars
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Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
Boom, there's your smoking gun.
There's also a black man in that picture. He's on the right side of the picture, wearing a white shirt with a tie and is standing near the blue and yellow pillar-thing.
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  #27  
Old 03 May 2008, 06:57 PM
Natalie Natalie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
don't think that Disneyland excluded black people. Snopes is right; if they did, there would have been some pretty big stories about it somewhere (googling "1960s Disneyland racism" brings up this thread as the #2 hit). I do think that there was a de facto, class-based exclusion of blacks and other minorities in the 50s and beyond, and the publicity stills distributed by the Walt Disney Co. don't have a single black patron I can find until the 80s at least.
From my own google-ing the other day, it appears that class-based de facto segregation was quite common at amusement parks after the early 60s. (Until then, most amusement parks, circuses, and so on had specific days a week when black people were allowed to attend.) Putting your park outside the nearest large city and not having any sort of mass transit to the park was quite common, and had the effect of keeping poor people and most black people away. I assume this happened at Disney the same way it happened at other parks.

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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
1964, not 1963.
I should really copyedit myself. Oh well.

ETA: as for the photos above, I did notice that those two black people are alone. That is, they don't appear to have any children with them or other family members. That suggests to me that they're probably employees, not guests.
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  #28  
Old 03 May 2008, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Natalie View Post
ETA: as for the photos above, I did notice that those two black people are alone. That is, they don't appear to have any children with them or other family members. That suggests to me that they're probably employees, not guests.

The woman may be, but I doubt the man is. Disney employees have very prominent name tags [other pictures from the era will show this] and the man's shirt clearly doesn't have a name tag. I don't think he's an employee.
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  #29  
Old 03 May 2008, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
(and I want to say this now: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)
[hijack]
I wouldn't. A hanging munchkin of mine is the usage of this phrase since 99.9% of the time absence of evidence just means that there is no evidence. One cannot imply the existence of something by stating that there is no evidence to disprove it. I cannot realistically claim that cavemen flied by using their mental powers alone and expect to be taken seriously (and not be fitted for a jacket and padded room) with some hard evidence. Just saying "you can't prove that they didn't exist!" doesn't cut it.

Simply put, that statement is horribly abused and is not very scientific.
[/hijack]
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  #30  
Old 03 May 2008, 07:56 PM
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Read This!

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A hanging munchkin of mine is the usage of this phrase since 99.9% of the time absence of evidence just means that there is no evidence. One cannot imply the existence of something by stating that there is no evidence to disprove it.
Indeed. The more relevant maxim would be that "absence of evidence is absence of evidence."

- snopes
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  #31  
Old 03 May 2008, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
Indeed. The more relevant maxim would be that "absence of evidence is absence of evidence."

- snopes
I agree. Doesn't sound so intelligent and witty though when it is being said.
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  #32  
Old 03 May 2008, 08:06 PM
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Il-Mari Il-Mari is offline
 
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Sammy Davis Jr. was one of the celebrity guests invited to the opening.

Quote:
Celebrities visiting Disneyland that day included Frank Sinatra, Jerry Lewis, Sammy Davis Jr., Debbie Reynolds and Eddie Fisher.
http://thisdayindisneyhistory.homest...ndOpening.html

- Il-Mari
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  #33  
Old 03 May 2008, 08:08 PM
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Reporter

Perhaps this is the origin of the rumor cited in the OP. Apparently Disneyland did not originally hire black employees (at least not on a regular basis), an issue that made the national news (albeit with only a few inches of coverage) in 1963:


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  #34  
Old 03 May 2008, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by diddy View Post
[hijack]
I wouldn't. A hanging munchkin of mine is the usage of this phrase since 99.9% of the time absence of evidence just means that there is no evidence. One cannot imply the existence of something by stating that there is no evidence to disprove it. I cannot realistically claim that cavemen flied by using their mental powers alone and expect to be taken seriously (and not be fitted for a jacket and padded room) with some hard evidence. Just saying "you can't prove that they didn't exist!" doesn't cut it.

Simply put, that statement is horribly abused and is not very scientific.
[/hijack]
Right, but there's a lot more to that particular claim than the lack of writing on cave walls saying "OG NOT ABLE TO MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH BRAIN UGH" (actually, if anything that would be evidence, since it implies the lack of something that is known about elsewhere). You've got the fact that, despite cavemen and modern humans being of the same species, there is no data out there whatsoever that suggests modern humans have the power of telekinetic flight. There's also the lack of any other primate to demonstrate this ability. There's no evolutionary chain to follow; what was the beast that had 1% of the 100% mind-flight capabilities that the ancient caveman possessed? You can make up a whole bunch of excuses for those questions or you can utilize Occam's Razor and decide there wasn't any ability for people to fly unassisted then or now.

Similarly, in the case of Disney I wanted to make it clear that my scouring of those old photographs for black persons was not an attempt to say "oops! No black ppls disney racist lol". If Disneyland was actively racist and not de facto racist like I think they were, there wouldn't be any black people in the pictures, but there would also be accounts of people refused entry out there and readily available, not secreted away on some conspiracy theorist's website. White people are often anti-racist as well and somebody in one of those long lines Disneyland is so well known for would have noticed one of what would have had to have been hundreds of cases of African-Americans turned away. Even given Los Angeles' and the general area media's conservative bias that lasted into the 60s*, this would have made the news somewhere.

I guess that in a sense if I never was able to find photos with a black person in Disneyland (we were, which is pretty damning evidence against the "blacks weren't allowed in" hypothesis), it would have been one pip of evidence to be used. I think that people get a mistaken notion as to what the word "evidence" means, though (that it's something that directly points to one conclusion and one conclusion alone and does not need additional evidence to support it - perhaps that's part of why eyewitness testimony continues to get so much more play than circumstantial evidence). I wasn't really trying to make a case for the overt racism crowd. I was just gathering data (well, truth be told, looking for the knock-out punch against the overt racism crowd).

*What I Know About LA I Learned From James Ellroy Novels by Johnny Slick
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  #35  
Old 03 May 2008, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Il-Mari View Post
Sammy Davis Jr. was one of the celebrity guests invited to the opening.
Given that Sammy Davis Jr. performed in Las Vegas hotels he wasn't allowed to stay in and performed in Miami Beach even though he had to have a special police permit just to be on the streets at night, that probably doesn't signify much.

- snopes
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  #36  
Old 04 May 2008, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
Right, but there's a lot more to that particular claim than the lack of writing on cave walls saying "OG NOT ABLE TO MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH BRAIN UGH" (actually, if anything that would be evidence, since it implies the lack of something that is known about elsewhere). You've got the fact that, despite cavemen and modern humans being of the same species, there is no data out there whatsoever that suggests modern humans have the power of telekinetic flight. There's also the lack of any other primate to demonstrate this ability. There's no evolutionary chain to follow; what was the beast that had 1% of the 100% mind-flight capabilities that the ancient caveman possessed? You can make up a whole bunch of excuses for those questions or you can utilize Occam's Razor and decide there wasn't any ability for people to fly unassisted then or now.
Right. I cannot make such a ludicrous statement because there is no evidence that establish such a belief. We have tons of proof that says that is probably not true. I get laughed out and measured for a nice padded cell because I cannot establish anything.

Quote:
Similarly, in the case of Disney I wanted to make it clear that my scouring of those old photographs for black persons was not an attempt to say "oops! No black ppls disney racist lol". If Disneyland was actively racist and not de facto racist like I think they were, there wouldn't be any black people in the pictures, but there would also be accounts of people refused entry out there and readily available, not secreted away on some conspiracy theorist's website. White people are often anti-racist as well and somebody in one of those long lines Disneyland is so well known for would have noticed one of what would have had to have been hundreds of cases of African-Americans turned away. Even given Los Angeles' and the general area media's conservative bias that lasted into the 60s*, this would have made the news somewhere.
Woa!! I never made such a claim. I merely was commenting on the phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" which is not a valid argument. I was not making any assertion on any research that you did. The fact you have not found any photos can only say that you cannot find any evidence to support the OP. You can very validly assume that the OP is false since its truth would be easy to validate otherwise. I happen to agree with you that the OP is probably false for the very reason you gave. Calm down!

Quote:
I wasn't really trying to make a case for the overt racism crowd. I was just gathering data (well, truth be told, looking for the knock-out punch against the overt racism crowd).
And I commend you for that and I do not disagree with you. I do not think that you were wrong in any way. Remember, you are not asserting the OP is true. If you cannot confirm the OP using research, than the OP's assertion is probably flawed.
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  #37  
Old 04 May 2008, 08:13 AM
songs78
 
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You probably don't see too many vacation pictures of African Americans in Disneyland in the 1950s because of two reasons, African Americans on average earned quite a bit less than white Americans and although Southern California has a large black population, Orange county in the 1950s and even today does not.
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  #38  
Old 04 May 2008, 03:35 PM
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Geez, I was at Disneyland in 1970, but I was three, and don't remember whether there were black people there or not. I will say, though, that if there were a well-known overt policy of exclusion of blacks, I very much doubt my parents would have taken me there.

The woman in the OP: if she intends to limit herself to going places that have never, ever had an overt policy of racism, she's not going to have too many places she can go. The whole point of the civil rights movement was to open up doors, not to say, "well, now you have to let us in, but we're not coming anyway." The woman in the OP will have to refuse to vote in the US, because at one time blacks couldn't vote, and refuse to drink from any water fountain that was once the "whites only" fountain. She won't be able to stay in almost any hotel built before 1964, nor send her kids to public school in districts that were founded before Brown vs. the Board of Education.
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  #39  
Old 04 May 2008, 04:19 PM
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Just because segregation existed doesn't mean it existed in every state. Or that it existed against blacks. Up here in the Pacific Northwest, for example, there were laws on the books but they were mainly directed at Asians. African-Americans were so few up here that they were more "exotic" than "minority".

I think the different drinking fountains thing in particular was a South thing. There may have been some of that in the Midwest as well, but primarily that was an experience African-Americans had in one particular part of the country.
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  #40  
Old 04 May 2008, 04:28 PM
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Brad from Georgia Brad from Georgia is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mags View Post
It's a girl, and she's in the second photo on the page. You can't miss her if you're looking at the correct photo, because she is nearly centered, and it's fairly close up.
There also appears to be a black gentleman to the right, next to a woman wearing a blue hat. He is wearing a white shirt and tie, and he's in front of a turquoise pylon. Of course, at that distance he could be Latino or Caucasian with a dark complexion....
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