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Old 13 January 2019, 10:50 PM
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Icon102 Flat Earthers plan a cruise that uses charts of a round planet to navigate

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Flat Earthers from around the globe disc are planning an all-out cruise for the 2020 Flat Earther International Conference. Promised to be the "biggest, boldest, best adventure yet," the cruise will bring like-minded people together who all believe the planet is a disc protected by an ice wall barrier. There's only one tiny hole in this plan — the cruise ship relies on navigational equipment based on a spherical Earth.

https://mashable.com/article/flat-ea...ce-cruise-gps/
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  #2  
Old 13 January 2019, 11:28 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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Let a flat earther try to plot the course. And use their own maps.
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  #3  
Old 14 January 2019, 02:13 AM
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(To the OP, not you RichardM...) So? Why is it a "hole" in their plan? No one is asking them to do the navigation. We all use relativity in our phones to navigate but it doesn't care what we "believe". 99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane. I mean, I like a low-brow fart joke as much as the next one but its only cool if it comes with the understanding that we all do it. Otherwise, meh, no better than thinking the world is flat.
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Old 14 January 2019, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane.
Nah, you just have to look at a flat earth map to know that navigating on a disc would be wildly different from navigating on a sphere, even if they didn't know the exact details.



You can see just from looking at it that direct flights from, say Australia to South America or Africa would be wildly different than on a globe.
(Note: many flat earthers explain this anomaly by denying that 12hr direct flights from Australia to South America actually happen)
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  #5  
Old 14 January 2019, 06:44 AM
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Big deal. Being able to repeat some simple fact one learned in school is only hardly much more impressive than repeating the wrong fact learned from elsewhere. Any one of us can say E=mc2 and say it "easy to see that energy is mass time the speed of light squared". Far fewer can put that to some useful end such as navigation. (Even though, again, our phones use relativity daily if we use GPS.) I don't think it's anything to brag about (or to laugh when others get it wrong).
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  #6  
Old 14 January 2019, 07:52 AM
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Do you have some sort of personal investment in the flat earth issue or are you just being a grumpy jerk over it for no reason?

Flat earth believers are definitely something to laugh about. They're idiots.
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  #7  
Old 14 January 2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane.
Plenty of people would know the first thing. They just wouldn't know the last thing. There are a lot of differences big and small, ranging from the big obvious issues down to the details requiring expert knowledge and practical experience. Some of them an adult should either be able to figure out themselves or at least acknowledge as obvious in retrospect once it's been pointed out to them. I can guarantee that anyone professing Flat Earth ideology has had some of these things pointed out to them, but they've rejected it.

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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Being able to repeat some simple fact one learned in school is only hardly much more impressive than repeating the wrong fact learned from elsewhere.
You are drastically underselling the amount of "wrong" you have to swallow to believe the "fact" that the Earth is flat. You have to be completely delusional and actively reject all sorts of everyday evidence staring you in the face. You have to reject the testimony of any sort of expert who would have to know all about this stuff and have more knowledge on the subject than you. You have to pretty much reject the concept of a shared reality that has any objectively knowable facts, in favor of a solipsistic fantasy universe in which you get to pick and choose whichever rules you find the most fun.
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  #8  
Old 14 January 2019, 11:06 PM
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Ganz, you're not going to turn this into another argument about free will, are you?
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  #9  
Old 14 January 2019, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Ganz, you're not going to turn this into another argument about free will, are you?
Does he have a choice?

*boom* mic drop
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  #10  
Old 14 January 2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
I notice you're still avoiding the question. Your anger at this issue and writing off people who laugh at flat earthers as "meh, no better than thinking the world is flat" makes it seem like you have a personal stake in defending flat earth believers, or at least dragging down the people who laugh at them. It's a weird stance to take on the Snopes.com message forum.
If this forum were about ridicule, I would have left long ago. On the contrary, this is the most thoughtful group of people I've ever known. I don't know what you mean by anger and all that first part. Nothing to do with anything I've said. I also don't understand why you or I would need some "personal stake" to comment on it. I don't know of any for myself.

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For a start, I'm an Australian and in this country there's precedent that belief in conspiracy theories is prima facie legally distinct from mental illnesses.
Speaking of a lot wrong, I don't know where to begin with this non-sequitur. You base your standards of what's worthy of ridicule on your particular country's law - or any country's law? That's, honestly, a bit worrisome if not ridiculous. We don't need to know the answer to any of the many questions that arise from this statement because you're just grasping for some way of defining a difference, as you have no science to support the claim.

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Believing in conspiracy theories can sometimes be a symptom of underlying mental illness but I think it's disingenuous to assume that's a cause in the majority of cases, unless your definition of 'mental disability' is incredibly loose and vague to the point where it's not really worth bringing up in a rational debate.
Whether you call it a mental model anomaly or a cognitive anomaly or even mental illness (something I never brought up) is also beside the point. The point is to admit (g)you don't (necessarily) know the difference. Even the experts in cognition don't know exactly what makes the difference. What you know, what we all know about 'mistaken' notions is probably about as much as the Flat Earthers know about geography - enough to make a general map but almost certainly still with many notable gaps and misconceptions. It may be round or flat; there may be a strong delineation or not. We simply don't know enough to say for sure yet.

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There's nothing wrong in making fun of people who are foolish because they should know better,
I never said it was wrong to make fun of them. I do say it is foolish and we should know better, (It's wrong for me but I definitely do it from time to time too.)

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Have you actually done any reading on flat earth theories? I wouldn't call myself an expert or anything but I've read a whole bunch of their theories and watched a whole bunch of their youtube videos and this stuff is really dumb.
That's an amazing amount of insight; That was obviously an excellent use of your time.

I just read the scientific literature although I have read a lot of other work about observing these groups, such as the one I linked to. I'm interested in the actual science of why people think the way they do, not what's 'dumb' or not. (I mean, you might as well just use the R word. I like a low-brow joke as much as the next guy. But you need to work on the delivery.)
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  #11  
Old 14 January 2019, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Ganz, you're not going to turn this into another argument about free will, are you?
I don't think it's necessary to point out the lack of evidence for this particular belief at this time. I think this is more a matter of people asserting their own ego. i.e. Not "I've made better choices than these fools" but "I'm so much smarter than these fools." Both are genuine human needs - even though both are rarely supported by any evidence. It's extremely fascinating.
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  #12  
Old 15 January 2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane.
They don't have to.

They just have to know the first thing about flat Earthers, which is that they're anti-science.

Science doesn't require 99% of people to understand it to be real. I accept that the Earth is round without having ever seen it from space because I trust that the scientific community knows what it is talking about enough that I accept a scientific consensus as reality. This isn't an act of blind faith but an act of humility - I don't believe I know better than scientists so I don't contradict their fields of study to them.

Those who go against scientific consensus just because they don't understand it (whether it's flat Earthers, evolution deniers, climate change deniers, anti-vaccinators or any other group) aren't just ignorant, in my opinion, but are harmfully ignorant. They spread misunderstanding and obstruct the education of others. They're not just unscientific but anti-scientific.

It's not helpful to make fun of them to their faces, but it's understandable that people want to make fun of them among other people who aren't anti-science. They are a frustrating bunch and sometimes frustration needs venting.
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  #13  
Old 15 January 2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
It's not helpful to make fun of them to their faces, but it's understandable that people want to make fun of them among other people who aren't anti-science. They are a frustrating bunch and sometimes frustration needs venting.
I agree with this, except for the frustrating part. I don't find Flat Earthers frustrating. But I get that people are frustrated by different things.
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  #14  
Old 16 January 2019, 01:26 PM
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My question to Flat Earthers would be: haven't you ever seen the earth's curvature from up on high, say on one of the many huge Ferris Wheels in various cities around the world? Photos from space, or are you also devotees of the whole Moon Landing Was Faked theory?
Never met a Flat-Earther though.
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  #15  
Old 16 January 2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
My question to Flat Earthers would be: haven't you ever seen the earth's curvature from up on high, say on one of the many huge Ferris Wheels in various cities around the world?
Some of them have made up quasi-mathematical models for how perspective works, to explain how things far away just naturally look curved, but it's an illusion. Others think the airlines put special lenses on their windows as part of the conspiracy.

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Photos from space, or are you also devotees of the whole Moon Landing Was Faked theory?
Oh yes, most are devotees of that conspiracy for sure, and far more. They think millions of people are in on a conspiracy to fool them, for reasons. They have different reasons for why they think there were would be such an outrageous global conspiracy going on all the time. But any of them who have put any thought into it at some point have to fall back on grand conspiracy theories of one sort or another to explain all the clear evidence to the contrary that they are presented with.

This conspiracy angle is one of the most toxic aspects of Flat Earth ideology. They aren't just mistaken nitwits. They're crusaders who think everyone is against them. It's dangerous.

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Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
Never met a Flat-Earther though.
Some of the few that I've met in the wild are the Young Earth Creationist religious type. Which is how I can rule out trolling on their part, since those people don't have a sarcastic bone in their body. Even the other fundamentalists in their religious circles think they're weird. This type also seems well represented among the Flat Earth true believers online, though it's not the only type of Flat Earth believer.

For this type, one of the common motivations for why the whole world is lying to them is pretty simple: Satan. They're trying to trick them into thinking they're just on a small rock in a huge universe, instead of being at the center of God's creation.
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Old 16 January 2019, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
My question to Flat Earthers would be: haven't you ever seen the earth's curvature from up on high, say on one of the many huge Ferris Wheels in various cities around the world?
Our eyes and brains are extremely bad at understanding reality from observations, especially at that distance and size. So I think it would be terrible advice to trust that kind of observation. Indeed, it could be that exact type of observation that leads people to accept these flatland notions.

Most people, whether they are fairly well educated or not, simply don't think too intensely about these kinds of things. So if they have some vague concept and their favorite music artist tweets that it's all flat they may say "yeah, that could be true" or "that sounds about right..." Eventually, after enough interactions of that type it becomes a settled question.

We should try to understand that that's what has happened to nearly all of those who know the world is round too! Many (I think most) people, when they get on a plane, are just going from A to B. They don't really think about why timeszones exist, etc. If they look out the plane window and supposedly see a curve (honestly I'm not convinced this has much to do with the shape of the planet but that's a debate for another day) then it's just one of many weird things they see around them that they don't feel the need or desire to work into what is actually a complex web of knowledge even if you get it 'right'. If they already have the correct shape in mind then it reinforces that; otherwise, like most of the info we get all day, it's 'safely' ignored.
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