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  #41  
Old 10 September 2018, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
I never said "vast majority." I said "much of." Is your definition of "much" "the vast majority of"? That's not a typical definition.
I wrongly remembered your wording, and apologize for that. Regardless your assertion that officers in much of the United States are taught to shoot first is false. If that were the case then there would be so many many more police shootings, but you only hear about ones that police get it wrong. And yes they should be examined, learned from, and if appropriate prosecuted.

Officers are taught to be hyper vigilant, officers are taught about the possible dangers that could be faced, and then they get on the job and face them for real. Officer's reactions to situations are based on training and experience and we hope we get it right every time, but we are human and sometimes we get it wrong. It is tragic when those mistakes lead to anyone's death, be it citizens or officers. It is a far leap from those to asserting that officers are being taught to shoot first and ask questions later.

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If you read the article itself (copyright prevents me from quoting the whole thing), it does describe what is taught in the training, and it is what I am claiming.
I've read it several times, and maybe I'm just missing it. The only information I see about his training is what I spoke about before as well as that it says he has trained police officers on how to think differently about police shootings that might appear excessive.
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I can well understand why someone in your position would take issue with the idea that someone in my position doesn't trust the police or their training universally but nothing about the way you've conducted yourself here inspires a great deal of confidence in your own fairness.
I will freely admit that I am biased, how could I not be. I still have a great deal of knowledge and experience in the subject. However every article you have posted is far from impartial and have their own bias as well. (I can't say on the last one, the link doesn't work for me.)
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  #42  
Old 10 September 2018, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post
I wrongly remembered your wording, and apologize for that. Regardless your assertion that officers in much of the United States are taught to shoot first is false. If that were the case then there would be so many many more police shootings, but you only hear about ones that police get it wrong. And yes they should be examined, learned from, and if appropriate prosecuted.
We only hear about shootings when officers get it wrong and the police department reports it. IIRC, in most areas police are not required to report shootings to the public.
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  #43  
Old 10 September 2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by UEL View Post
Does Texas have a "Stand Your Ground" Law? Because if the guy in the apartment came after her, she could shoot him and claim self defence.

It may not convince a jury, but it may.
Why you would put the self-defense on the officer? She was the intruder. If anybody could be considered to be standing one's ground it would be the gentleman who's home was invaded.
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  #44  
Old 10 September 2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iskinner View Post
Why you would put the self-defense on the officer?
Because she's the one who committed homicide and needs a defense?
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  #45  
Old 10 September 2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Because she's the one who committed homicide and needs a defense?
Exactly. Based on what we know so far her only real defense would appear to be that she thought she was in her own apartment and surprised an intruder. Her defense could be a "stand your ground" one if a jury can be convinced that she acted out of genuine belief.
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  #46  
Old 10 September 2018, 02:40 PM
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No. From what I've seen, the earlier explanation given is correct about stand you ground not working here. She would have to be in a place where it was legal for her to be. If she was inside his apartment, that would not.be the case. I'm not sure, but she also might be considered an "aggressor" under the circumstances.

She may have an imperfect self defense claim. I have not been able to verify that Texas has the imperfect self defense = voluntary manslaughter rule. If it does, what would otherwise be murder is reduced to voluntary manslaughter based on a person's honest but unreasonable belief in what constitute the elements of self defense.

On the other hand, if any connections are discovered between her and the victim, or if she has not been forthcoming about all of what happened, she could be charged with/convicted of a greater crime.

ETA: I will mention that at one time, I lived in an apartment complex made up of identical buildings. Walking home from work once, I turned at the wrong building, went upstairs, and after being puzzled for a minute about my key not working, I figured it out. I don't remember being particularly exhausted, and was not drunk. I was just doing something on autopilot and the autopilot glitched. I also opened the door to tell someone they similarly had the wrong place on at least one occasion.

Last edited by erwins; 10 September 2018 at 02:49 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10 September 2018, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iskinner View Post
Why you would put the self-defense on the officer? She was the intruder. If anybody could be considered to be standing one's ground it would be the gentleman who's home was invaded.
Short answer is that I don't know much about "Stand Your Ground Laws".

The longer answer is complicated by the fact that my introduction to that defence was the killing of Trayvon Martin, where Zimmerman armed himself, pursued Martin, got into a physical altercation where he started losing, so that justified him killing Martin.

Added to that is the current case where someone confronted a person about parking in a handicapped spot, when that person reacted back, they were killed. Stand Your Ground is the defence on that one.

I don't understand the "no duty to retreat" concept, and therefore I have no clue how the law is intended to work.

So, I was asking the question.
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  #48  
Old 10 September 2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
No. From what I've seen, the earlier explanation given is correct about stand you ground not working here. She would have to be in a place where it was legal for her to be. If she was inside his apartment, that would not.be the case. I'm not sure, but she also might be considered an "aggressor" under the circumstances.
I get that but what I could see happening would be an attempt to convince a jury that she thought she was in a place she had a right to be and acted in self defense. Would it work? Maybe not. But I wouldn't be surprised if they tried.
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  #49  
Old 10 September 2018, 03:53 PM
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Stand your ground laws are not that rare, according to this site, 23 states have them. Basically, stand-your-ground means that a self-defense claim does not specifically require that g-you retreat from the encounter before using potentially deadly force. For a counter example, Massachusetts law requires that g-you attempted to retreat (or were unable to do so) before permitting a claim of self-defense.

Note that another aspect of self-defense is the castle doctrine. Generally that means that there is no duty to retreat when g-you are your home.

IMO, the main problem with Florida's stand-your-ground law is not that it removes the requirement to retreat, but that the law requires the prosecution to prove that the person did not have the right to self-defense. Previously, it was up to the person who used deadly force to prove that it was justified.

Quote:
In a criminal prosecution, once a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity from criminal prosecution has been raised by the defendant at a pretrial immunity hearing, the burden of proof by clear and convincing evidence is on the party seeking to overcome the immunity from criminal prosecution provided in subsection (1).
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  #50  
Old 10 September 2018, 03:55 PM
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For more details, go to the Dallas newspaper web site: https://www.dallasnews.com/
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  #51  
Old 10 September 2018, 04:24 PM
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Thanks, RichardM. That article clarifies things a lot.

Presuming the article's accurate: she parked at the wrong level and so got off on the wrong floor, the door wasn't locked, the lights were out, and she fired as soon as she saw someone in what she thought was her apartment.

I can easily see how, in the sort of building in which all the doors (and presumably the parking levels) look more or less the same, starting off on the wrong floor could lead to walking into the wrong apartment. The apartments had numbers, but who looks at their apartment number every time before going in? There was a red doormat which she didn't have, but people approaching (what they think is) their own door inside a building may well not be looking down. She apparently didn't take time enough to see, in the comparative dark inside the apartment, the presumable differences in interior decoration and belongings.

So the issue seems not to be, why didn't she instantly realize that she wasn't home [ETA: which she apparently did as soon as she turned on the light], but why, before firing, she didn't take that time to see what she was looking at? It doesn't sound like Jean was coming at her with a weapon, or charging at her at speed. She thought he was a burglar -- and her immediate response was not to try to arrest him, not to pull her gun and warn him but hold off on shooting, not to -- with or without holding a gun on him -- ask him what the hell he was doing in her apartment. Her immediate response was just to shoot him.

Whether that was due to her training, due to being in a state of exhaustion or otherwise of altered mind, or due to her usual personality I have no idea. Nor do I know whether Texas law allows it. But I do know that I think it was wrong.

(For that matter, as to the possible state of exhaustion, medication, or whatever: while after a 15 hour shift she may well have been exhausted, if she was that far gone that it was seriously affecting her judgement, she shouldn't have been driving. Does that department routinely expect people to drive home while so tired that they can't think? And what state was her judgement in otherwise during the last couple hours of that shift?)

Last edited by thorny locust; 10 September 2018 at 04:29 PM.
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  #52  
Old 10 September 2018, 05:07 PM
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If you Google "Dallas police department staffing", you will find many articles about how under staffed the department is.
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  #53  
Old 10 September 2018, 05:13 PM
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That's because the interviewers shoot first and ask questions later.
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  #54  
Old 10 September 2018, 10:25 PM
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That's not really fair, GenYus. If that were the case, there would be a lot more job seekers shot. We only hear about the times they make mistakes, which is only several dozen times more dead unarmed interviewees compared with other coutries, not, like, hundreds of times more.
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  #55  
Old 10 September 2018, 10:37 PM
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Yeah, but the HR departments aren't required to report shootings of interviewees to any national group or clearinghouse, so we only hear about the ones from departments that voluntarily submit data.
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  #56  
Old 10 September 2018, 11:33 PM
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Fair enough but I actually played interview one time with squirt guns and let me tell you everyone got very wet. So unless you have that kind of experience or actually work in HR then I think it's better to leave it to the experts to reduce questionable gunshot wounds in the hiring process.
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  #57  
Old 11 September 2018, 01:21 AM
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You're both lucky I've switched from a desktop with a vulnerable keyboard to a waterproof smartphone.
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  #58  
Old 11 September 2018, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
We only hear about shootings when officers get it wrong and the police department reports it. IIRC, in most areas police are not required to report shootings to the public.
No the police do not report shootings to the public. The media and new sources do that. They seem pretty efficient at it. There are private organizations that gather statistics as well.
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  #59  
Old 11 September 2018, 02:34 AM
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To amplify, the police do not hide shootings from the public or the press. It is true the facts may get obfuscated and that may be deliberate. But that is less likely to happen today with cell phone video, dash cams and lapel cams.
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  #60  
Old 11 September 2018, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
her immediate response was not to try to arrest him, not to pull her gun and warn him but hold off on shooting, not to -- with or without holding a gun on him -- ask him what the hell he was doing in her apartment. Her immediate response was just to shoot him.
Or maybe not; maybe I was wrong about that. This article says

Quote:
An affidavit for an arrest warrant says [ . . . ] she gave him orders that he didn't follow
So maybe she did try to arrest him? though what orders she says she gave him, and whether there's any evidence besides her own word that she gave him any, is still unclear to me.
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