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  #21  
Old 02 August 2018, 08:59 PM
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From here:

Quote:
Natural Ingredients include

- plant, animal, mineral or microbial ingredients…
- present in or produced by nature.
- produced using minimal physical processing.*

...

* Minimal Processing means the ingredient has had no more processing than something which could be made in a household kitchen, stillroom, on a farm, or vineyard. It doesn’t mean they have to actually be made in those settings, but that they would require no more equipment or technology than that which could be employed in those settings.
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  #22  
Old 02 August 2018, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
If it doesn't come from a food through "basic" processing, it is not a natural flavor.
Genyus, the description given doesn't read to me as if that's the distinction being made. It reads to me that the distinction being made is between items produced through some types of processing, which need to be listed as food ingredients on the lable; and flavor components extracted through any of a variety of other methods, which can be listed as flavoring instead of as food ingredients.

Stan The Man, the definition in your link isn't a legal one; it's the definition being used by the web site of the Natural Ingredient Resource center. Further down the page you link to it says:

Quote:
there is no official, U.S. government regulated definition for the term natural pertaining to the natural products industry, [ . . . ] In the early ’80s the FTC came up with a great definition for Natural – never adopted. They said that an ingredient may be called “natural” only if it contains no artificial or synthetic ingredients and has had no more processing than something which could be made in a household kitchen.
So, at least according to that site, while they did indeed consider making that a legal definition, it was never adopted; and so is not in effect, at least for USA labels. I don't know about label requirements in other countries.
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  #23  
Old 02 August 2018, 10:16 PM
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Forgot the first part (and a link):
Quote:
(1) The term artificial flavor or artificial flavoring means any substance, the function of which is to impart flavor, which is not derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, fish, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof. Artificial flavor includes the substances listed in 172.515(b) and 582.60 of this chapter except where these are derived from natural sources.
It sounds to me that that line is stuff deriving from food is natural, stuff not derived from food is artificial.
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  #24  
Old 02 August 2018, 10:30 PM
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Yup.

But I think what's being discussed is whether there's a type or level of processing at which, even if the originating material is natural, the result of the process shouldn't be described as such.

If I took a tomato, broke it down into its constituent atoms, and then selected out some of those atoms and assembled them into a combination that wasn't in the original tomato: would I still have a natural tomato product?

Note, I'm not claiming anybody's doing exactly that right now -- I've no idea. But at least one of those processes named in your link is used, as near as I can tell, to select out specific amino acids. Maybe that is still 'natural [fill in the plant here] flavoring'. But I can understand why some people don't think so.
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  #25  
Old 02 August 2018, 10:36 PM
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That situation may not be addressed because no one is doing it and it is unlikely that no one would. Same way there are no regulations against time travel.

As you say, the extreme techniques would probably be covered under the extractive or enzymolysis parts of the natural flavor clause.
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  #26  
Old 02 August 2018, 10:57 PM
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Chemical reactions in and of themselves aren't really unnatural, though. I mean cooking is a chemical reaction. If you cook tomatoes and salt together you're basically making homemade MSG. Does that mean MSG qualifies as a natural ingredient? Actually maybe it does.
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  #27  
Old 02 August 2018, 11:22 PM
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MSG qualifies as MSG:
Quote:
(5) Any monosodium glutamate used as an ingredient in food shall be declared by its common or usual name monosodium glutamate.
I presume this is only if it is added as itself. Naturally occurring MSG probably wouldn't have to be listed as such, just like you don't have to list fructose in fruit juices.
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  #28  
Old 03 August 2018, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
As you say, the extreme techniques would probably be covered under the extractive or enzymolysis parts of the natural flavor clause.
In other words, you assume they'd be allowed to be labeled as natural flavors?
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  #29  
Old 03 August 2018, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
MSG qualifies as MSG:


I presume this is only if it is added as itself. Naturally occurring MSG probably wouldn't have to be listed as such, just like you don't have to list fructose in fruit juices.
Right. Any time you're seeing "autolyzed yeast extract," it's essentially there for the glutamates (although not technically MSG, it comes close). Similarly, there are lines of bacon, ham, etc., listed as "Nitrate-free" with an asterisk explaining "*except those naturally occurring in..." celery powder, kale extract, etc. There are even ways to weasel around obvious added sugar by calling it "evaporated cane juice."
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  #30  
Old 03 August 2018, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicgeek View Post
There are even ways to weasel around obvious added sugar by calling it "evaporated cane juice."
Third ingredient, evaporated cane juice. Fifth ingredient, high fructose corn syrup. Sixth ingredient, sorghum syrup. Eighth ingredient, sucrose . . .

Gee, I wonder why this stuff tastes like the main ingredient is sugar?
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  #31  
Old 03 August 2018, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
Did something in my comment make you think I was serious?
No, just a comment that beverages can be 'dry', which may not be known by the world at large.
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  #32  
Old 19 August 2018, 02:59 AM
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Conan O'Brien announced on Twitter tonight that in the spirit of this lawsuit, he's starting a lawsuit against Panda Express.

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