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Old 12 June 2018, 02:40 PM
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Default A Quisling and His Enablers

This is not a column about whether Donald Trump is a quisling — a politician who serves the interests of foreign masters at his own country’s expense. Any reasonable doubts about that reality were put to rest by the events of the past few days, when he defended Russia while attacking our closest allies.

We don’t know Trump’s motivation. Is it blackmail? Bribery? Or just a generalized sympathy for autocrats and hatred for democracy? And we may never find out: If he shuts down the Mueller investigation and Republicans retain control of Congress, the cover-up may hold indefinitely. But his actions tell the story.

As I said, however, this isn’t a column about Trump. It is, instead, about the people who are enabling his betrayal of America: the inner circle of officials and media personalities who are willing to back him up whatever he says or does, and the wider set of politicians — basically the entire Republican delegation in Congress — who have the power and constitutional obligation to stop what he’s doing, but won’t lift a finger in America’s defense.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/o...-enablers.html
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Old 12 June 2018, 03:33 PM
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I was thinking of the Max Brooks use of the term...
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  #3  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:22 PM
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So you think they risk getting eaten by their "allies", Beach?
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  #4  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:39 PM
Sooeygun Sooeygun is offline
 
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Well, I think this explains why he so desperately wants to get into NK.

https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/stat...67614007177216

Quote:
SINGAPORE (AP) — Trump says he talked up North Korea's real estate, beachside hotel opportunities in Kim Jong Un meeting.
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  #5  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:43 PM
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Maybe he'd like us better if we let him build a beachside hotel in Nunavut?
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  #6  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sooeygun View Post
Well, I think this explains why he so desperately wants to get into NK.

https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/stat...67614007177216
I guess it's a good thing that I continue to be shocked by him. Not surprised, exactly. But shocked and appalled.
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  #7  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:50 PM
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Maybe he'd like us better if we let him build a beachside hotel in Nunavut?
He was offered a deal on several sites, but he wanted none of it.

ETA: Isn't that the same reason he was helping ZTE? He's not even original in his blatant corruption anymore. I remember the good old days when Trump would create a new outrage every day. Now he's just recycling the same old outrages.
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  #8  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:55 PM
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A useful way to test the deal Donald Trump has reached with Kim Jong-un is to imagine what Trump himself would have said had it been Barack Obama rather than him who shook hands with the North Korean dictator. Trump and his echo chamber on Fox News and elsewhere would have poured buckets of derision on Obama for the piece of paper he signed with Kim, for the fawning praise he lavished on a brutal tyrant, and for the paltry non-concessions he got in return. He would have branded the agreement a “horrible deal” and condemned Obama as a sucker for signing it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ea-kim-jong-un
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  #9  
Old 12 June 2018, 09:11 PM
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I understand the argument, but I don't think that is a useful way to test the deal. Trump and the Fox and Friends crew would, and did, deride things that Obama did that actually were good deals. To determine whether or not a deal is good based on how they would have reacted had Obama made the deal is to say that there is no such thing as a good deal.
I am not saying that this is a good deal, mind you.
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  #10  
Old 12 June 2018, 09:27 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Did/does the US get anything out of the agreement? Kim Jong Un got a photo with a US president in front of US and NK flags. He got a promise (which apparently isn't actually in the agreement) that the US would stop war games with SK forces.

What did the US get? There is no agreement on stopping development of, or destroying existing, nukes in NK. No promise of pulling back the million or so NK troops within spitting distance of Seoul.

The Turnip not only signed the same agreement that has been signed twice before but he has given real value to NK and Jong-Un for the same meaningless promises. Near as I can tell the US was a BIG loser in this meeting.
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  #11  
Old 12 June 2018, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Maybe he'd like us better if we let him build a beachside hotel in Nunavut?
Given how much the celebrities are talking up that beachside resort in Labrador, I would not put it past him.
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  #12  
Old 12 June 2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
A useful way to test the deal Donald Trump has reached with Kim Jong-un is to imagine what Trump himself would have said had it been Barack Obama rather than him who shook hands with the North Korean dictator. Trump and his echo chamber on Fox News and elsewhere would have poured buckets of derision on Obama for the piece of paper he signed with Kim, for the fawning praise he lavished on a brutal tyrant, and for the paltry non-concessions he got in return. He would have branded the agreement a “horrible deal” and condemned Obama as a sucker for signing it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ea-kim-jong-un
It's not a good way to test it. The difference is that they would have been right. Obama never, to my knowledge, had such boneheaded diplomacy* and deal, but the reaction would have been the same.

*I was going to just say deal, but that doesn't cover it. It was all of the run up and the adulation once there, too.
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Old 12 June 2018, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by UEL View Post
Given how much the celebrities are talking up that beachside resort in Labrador, I would not put it past him.
What's sad (oh god I'm channeling Trump) is that Americans are still going to come to Canada for holidays etc because of the favourable exchange rate if nothing else but Canadians are starting to rethink crossing the border for anything. I do realize the plural of anecdote is not data but seriously everyone I know personally is saying if they can't show support to our government in any other way at the very least they won't be going to the US and they will be seriously reconsidering purchases in light of where the money goes.
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  #14  
Old 13 June 2018, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
A useful way to test the deal Donald Trump has reached with Kim Jong-un is to imagine what Trump himself would have said had it been Barack Obama rather than him who shook hands with the North Korean dictator. Trump and his echo chamber on Fox News and elsewhere would have poured buckets of derision on Obama for the piece of paper he signed with Kim, for the fawning praise he lavished on a brutal tyrant, and for the paltry non-concessions he got in return. He would have branded the agreement a “horrible deal” and condemned Obama as a sucker for signing it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ea-kim-jong-un
FAUX said that about Obama's deal with Iran, and it was a good deal.

The real test is how MSNBC would have reacted to this deal if Obama had signed it.

And I think they'd have acted the way they acted about Trump.
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  #15  
Old 13 June 2018, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
What's sad (oh god I'm channeling Trump) is that Americans are still going to come to Canada for holidays etc because of the favourable exchange rate if nothing else but Canadians are starting to rethink crossing the border for anything. I do realize the plural of anecdote is not data but seriously everyone I know personally is saying if they can't show support to our government in any other way at the very least they won't be going to the US and they will be seriously reconsidering purchases in light of where the money goes.
I know scores of Canadians and Americans in the Dragon Boat community and haven't talked to one person yet who is curtailing their trips across the border. The exchange hasn't come into play yet either. I will be in Toronto this weekend, paddling with a team based in Halifax, NS and have no idea what the exchange rate even is. I will be back again for the Toronto Grand Prix. Politics and exchange rate have never been part of my decision.
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  #16  
Old 13 June 2018, 12:41 AM
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Politics and exchange rate have never been part of my decision.
Until Trump got in politics didn't play a part in my decisions either . The exchange rate, however, definitely has.
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  #17  
Old 13 June 2018, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Did/does the US get anything out of the agreement? Kim Jong Un got a photo with a US president in front of US and NK flags. He got a promise (which apparently isn't actually in the agreement) that the US would stop war games with SK forces.

What did the US get? There is no agreement on stopping development of, or destroying existing, nukes in NK. No promise of pulling back the million or so NK troops within spitting distance of Seoul.

The Turnip not only signed the same agreement that has been signed twice before but he has given real value to NK and Jong-Un for the same meaningless promises. Near as I can tell the US was a BIG loser in this meeting.
The US got nothing. Trump got help in conning Americans. The entire point of this, IMO, is to convince some that he actually is a deal maker and can go and do things that other presidents couldn't. Remember him saying on the campaign trail that only he could do some things? Well, he is now saying that only he could get this out of the Kim family, and all his predecessors couldn't. Never mind that any previous president could have done exactly this, and several presidents have gotten effectively the same promises from them. Trump will continue to push that he did something that hasn't been done before because he is such a good deal maker, and far too many people will believe him.
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  #18  
Old 13 June 2018, 03:14 PM
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Last night on I think Rachel Maddow, it was stated that this was partially why he's had so many businesses fail: he makes a big noise about how tough and unyielding he's going to be before the meeting, then tends to just give whatever the other side asks for with little to no concessions on their part.
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  #19  
Old 13 June 2018, 04:33 PM
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I saw some speculation that the reason Trump and his advisers went nuts attacking Trudeau and by extension Canada was that he wanted to go into the meeting with North Korea looking tough. I guess subsequent events prove that theory wrong. He basically rolled over showed his tummy and wagged his curly little tail.
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  #20  
Old 13 June 2018, 05:13 PM
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Trump always wants to look tough. And he always wants the approval of men he thinks really are tough.
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