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  #21  
Old 31 October 2017, 06:01 PM
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Dreams of Thinking Machines Dreams of Thinking Machines is offline
 
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I think I've probably posted this Sartre quote before but it's worth reposting:
Quote:
I mentioned awhile back some remarks by anti-Semites, all of them absurd: "I hate Jews because they make servants insubordinate, because a Jewish furrier robbed me, etc." Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge.

But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors.
There's a truth about trolling here that I think applies equally to the alt-right.
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  #22  
Old 02 November 2017, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I sure didn't think those -isms had been "safely resolved."
I suppose I should have worded things more carefully: the general cultural meme was that those -isms had been resolved. Of course, if anyone had been paying attention, we would have known it wasn't.

I mean, I allegedly grew up surrounded by cultural memes about how "Girls can do anything a boy can!" and "Girl Power!" and all that, yet you don't have to look very hard to tell that there are still very different standards that women are held to that men aren't. There's the obvious "A guy who sleeps with a lot of girls is The Man, but a girl who sleeps with a lot of guys, is a Slut," but it isn't too hard to see other signs, like how girls who had been funny, assertive, and able to hold their own against male classmates, suddenly turn into watered-down weak caricatures once puberty hits. While puberty is awkward for everyone, guys eventually gain strength and confidence from it, whereas for women, it's a stifling chokehold that we spend years recovering from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
Mouse, what would you have had us doing differently to prevent the alt-right from germinating and spreading, had we not been so complacent or willfully blind?
A large reason we're in this mess is through overuse of Nazi metaphors/comparisons, the stuff that led to concepts like Godwin's Law. In crying, "Nazi!" so many times, we left everyone jaded and completely unprepared for a president who is acting, well, genuinely Nazi-ish.

In fact, I wonder how much your Average Joe knows about the Third Reich and its beliefs, beyond the whole "They hated Jews" meme. After all, Hitler got into power by telling a story that the German people found attractive and wanted to hear. It'd be helpful to go into the finer details of the story Hitler sold them and why it would have been so attractive to the Germans of the time. After all, a basic rule of biology is if you put a germ in the right culture, it will grow. If it's in the wrong culture, then it will shrivel up and die pretty fast. The Nazis wouldn't have gotten anything accomplished if the larger culture wasn't suited for them.

Only in getting beyond short clips of Hitler yelling in German, only by learning about the ideology of Nazism and why it attracted and swallowed up so many otherwise good people, can we really better understand it.

Plain and simple, we got into this trap due to ignorance. We also got into it because we came to equate trying to understand something with condoning something, which is just a bad move all around. If anything, the more something frightens or disturbs you, the more you should try to better understand and learn about it.

Sorry to have sat on this thread for a while. I wanted to do some thinking for a bit.
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  #23  
Old 02 November 2017, 01:55 AM
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I'm not sure what you're getting at, Mouse. Above you wrote:
Quote:
I just thought it was interesting, is all. We're in the mess we're in right now, because we got complacent, allowed ourselves to believe that Racism, Sexism, and just about any instutionalized -ism, had been safely resolved, so we didn't have to worry about them anymore. In being so willfully blind, we allowed those alt-right shitstains to germinate and spread their awful awful beliefs.
Then:
Quote:
A large reason we're in this mess is through overuse of Nazi metaphors/comparisons, the stuff that led to concepts like Godwin's Law. In crying, "Nazi!" so many times, we left everyone jaded and completely unprepared for a president who is acting, well, genuinely Nazi-ish.
It seems hard to believe that the Trump presidency is here because we thought prejudice no longer exists, and also because we accused everyone of prejudice.
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  #24  
Old 02 November 2017, 11:06 AM
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mbravo mbravo is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
but it isn't too hard to see other signs, like how girls who had been funny, assertive, and able to hold their own against male classmates, suddenly turn into watered-down weak caricatures once puberty hits. While puberty is awkward for everyone, guys eventually gain strength and confidence from it, whereas for women, it's a stifling chokehold that we spend years recovering from.
I know anecdote isn't data, but I really can't think of anyone I grew up with who became a watered-down version of themself due to puberty, even if just briefly during middle school... people were jackasses for a while, or may have become a little more self-conscious, but that was pretty evenly distributed between boys and girls I grew up with, and many kids had both the bravado and the self-consciousness. Is this really a well-known cultural phenomenon that I have just missed?

Further anecdote that isn't data- I didn't consider puberty to be anything I recovered from, neither did friends of mine AFAICT... we had rough menstrual periods and used to vent about them to each other, but we just knew it was part of us growing up, I wouldn't call it a stifling chokehold?
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  #25  
Old 05 November 2017, 01:38 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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And now he's being mocked for hawking an overpriced nootropic with no real discernible benefits and possible very bad side effects.

It possibly goes a long way to explain why he calls things "autistic screeching" too.
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  #26  
Old 05 November 2017, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbravo View Post
I know anecdote isn't data, but I really can't think of anyone I grew up with who became a watered-down version of themself due to puberty, even if just briefly during middle school... people were jackasses for a while, or may have become a little more self-conscious, but that was pretty evenly distributed between boys and girls I grew up with, and many kids had both the bravado and the self-consciousness. Is this really a well-known cultural phenomenon that I have just missed?

Further anecdote that isn't data- I didn't consider puberty to be anything I recovered from, neither did friends of mine AFAICT... we had rough menstrual periods and used to vent about them to each other, but we just knew it was part of us growing up, I wouldn't call it a stifling chokehold?
Gender expectations are more blurry on an individual level than a societal one. It's true that I never felt any different as a teen, but at the same time I know I was more influenced by the pressure to conform (as much as I, as a punky teen, may have outwardly proclaimed to reject the idea).

There is a strong sort of push for girls to be more feminine and for boys to be more masculine that crystalises into urgency during adolescence. This doesn't mean I ever felt oppressed as a girl (except in a few of the more blatant instances of sexism) but it does mean that what I thought were completely my own decisions were steered down a decidedly more socially acceptable path without me necessarily being aware of it. There becomes a sudden need to be more appealing and be less of an outcast when you're a teen, and as much as you might try to fight it you will be affected by its influence. Social norms, which are a bit mysterious to a child, are far more serious to teenagers. Even the rejection of them requires an understanding of what they are, and once you know what they are they can influence you in subtle ways.
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  #27  
Old 13 November 2017, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Quote:
Mouse, what would you have had us doing differently to prevent the alt-right from germinating and spreading, had we not been so complacent or willfully blind?
A large reason we're in this mess is through overuse of Nazi metaphors/comparisons, the stuff that led to concepts like Godwin's Law. In crying, "Nazi!" so many times, we left everyone jaded and completely unprepared for a president who is acting, well, genuinely Nazi-ish.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but I'm not sure that answers my question. In trying to formulate a proposed solution to our current predicament from your post, the only thing I can come up with is "don't overuse Nazi comparisons." But you don't seem to be saying that the overuse of Nazi comparisons caused the return of Nazism (or Nazi-ish-ism), only that it left people unprepared for the return of Nazism/Nazi-ish-ism. So that still leaves the question: if we hadn't been jaded by the overuse of Nazi comparisons and had been prepared for the real(-ish) deal, what would/could/should we have done?
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  #28  
Old 24 November 2017, 06:07 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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I haven't had a chance to look at this video, but chances are he's wrong about art again.
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  #29  
Old 24 November 2017, 08:25 PM
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ASL ASL is offline
 
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I'm not sure why you're directing people to this guy's videos.
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  #30  
Old 24 November 2017, 10:51 PM
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Yeah, I think at a certain point the old internet adage applies: "Don't feed the trolls."
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  #31  
Old 25 November 2017, 02:08 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
I'm not sure why you're directing people to this guy's videos.
I find him weirdly fascinating. It's like, he's completely wrong, but he's so convinced he's right he makes Dunning and Kruger look over their notes.

Also, I keep wanting to find out: what are his sources? Who do I have to google just to see how wrong he is? And with 14-minute long videos like the one I linked above, that isn't easy.
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  #32  
Old 25 November 2017, 04:30 PM
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Maybe he just makes shit up? Or goes to any number of fake news and pseudo scientific garbage sites that spout basically the same shit about whatever the manufactured controversy of the day is?

It was hard to get information on this guy at first. Eventually I found him by googling "PJW YouTube" and saw he has a wiki page. Wholly unremarkable.

Anyways, I have no interest in watching his videos: the world is full of train wrecks. Hardly fascinating. For any like-minded individuals (that is people who want to end the mystery, but not give this guy views) the Wikipedia page is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Joseph_Watson
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  #33  
Old 25 November 2017, 11:20 PM
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I wonder how many of the views of this kind of thing are "I find it fascinating." Not that I think that requires any genius. Cats getting their heads stuck in boxes are almost as good at it.
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  #34  
Old 28 November 2017, 11:19 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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You'd first have to figure out how many of them disagree with him. It's a little easier to notice on Twitter (@PrisonPlanet) because of the dreaded YouTube Comments Section.
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  #35  
Old 29 November 2017, 01:50 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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We should also note: that Wikipedia article mentions (and the archive.is snapshot I linked on the first page confirms) that Paul is one of the people that Donald Trump's loudest supporter holds in esteem. (Don't worry. That video is cherrypicked clips).

In fact, for those willing to risk it, here is a longer version of the clip John Oliver played on Last Week Tonight to open his story on Alex Jones (in the clip, Jones compares Oliver to PJW). Word of warning though: while neither Alex's nor Paul's channel show up in my recommendations (although I never go looking at InfoWars unless RationalWiki directs me there), I have had recommendations from others who think themselves reporters, so I suggest you take precautions of some sort.
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  #36  
Old 13 June 2018, 03:01 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Hbomberguy was asked about PJW.

His response covers everyone from Paul and current whipping-boy Jordan Peterson to fallen idols like the people who made “Alt-Right Dogs”.
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  #37  
Old 13 June 2018, 08:55 AM
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Why are you still beating this dead horse?
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  #38  
Old 13 June 2018, 09:59 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny View Post
Why are you still beating this dead horse?
As the questioner said: heís Schrodingerís Pundit. He is an idiot, and debunking him is low-hanging fruit (Iíve done it myself, although my own video is poor and lost to the sands of Vid.me), but at the same time heís kept his influential position where most others have dropped off.

Also, that one showed up on my timeline, because even if I didnít follow Hbomb, Iím sure Shaun or Lindsay Ellis or Contra or David Futrelle would have retweeted it. Hbomb has a following in leftist YouTube rational land.
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