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  #41  
Old 13 May 2018, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
It's just unbelievable to me that the right so quickly and easily threw away their most cherished principles. I guess somehow I believed that while we didn't see eye to eye on many things, well, at least they stood for something. Then, in a flash, our allies became enemies, adversaries became allies, and actual war heroes - war heroes who spent most of the rest of their lives working for conservative causes - are openly ridiculed. At any moment I expect my jaw to become unhinged and hit the floor. I've talked about the extremes of cognitive dissonance on the board a lot and perhaps I have some rather extreme views on that subject but even I never imagined how extreme that would get.

Will they wake up one day and look at who they're sleeping with and get a similarly extreme shock? I don't know. It seems unlikely at this point there will ever be any attempt at a reconciliation of actual conservative values with what we see... Maybe the whole conservative movement will continue this horrific slide into conspiracy theories and alternative facts. I never thought I'd look back on the McCain, Romney, even GHWBush and think "you know, they weren't that bad..."

Sue remarked in the other thread that "2014 wasn't that long ago" but it feels like an eternity.
I've long debated at what point did the GOP become a doomsday cult. After much thought, I've concluded that it started with the Southern Strategy. Once they made the decision to make the racist white idiot vote a key to their strategy/platform, that when they started on the path that will forever dominate their destiny.

But seriously, the GOP is now basically a doomsday cult, happy to burn down everything if it means the other side doesn't "win." To borrow from Varys, "They would see this country burn if they could be king of the ashes."

They are also rich as hell and know that no matter what, they will be able to buy their way out of trouble. This strategy has always worked for them, so it's no surprise that they would try it again, use their money to escape the country. They'll go to some other country and start again, while everyone else is left to clean up their messes. It's what they've spent their entire lives doing.

It might be the reason that Tim LaHaye's brand of Christianity, Premillenial Dispensationalism, holds so much sway among the Christian Right: it's affirming what they've always thought, that they are a special enlightened group of humanity and that their faith/money will protect and shelter them, so they will not suffer like those lesser, lazy, shiftless, mooching sinners. Because enlightened beings like them, do not deserve to know even the slightest pain or discomfort in life.
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  #42  
Old 14 May 2018, 05:55 AM
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They are also rich as hell and know that no matter what, they will be able to buy their way out of trouble. This strategy has always worked for them, so it's no surprise that they would try it again, use their money to escape the country.
Are they indeed? I mean, surely a lot of the head figures of the Repuplican Party are rich, including their President, but a lot of their voters that I can see in interviews or on pictures from rallies and townhall meeting look more like lower middle class or even working poor to me.

How is the makeup of the rank and file of the Party? What's the median income of the people at the National Convention? I'm honestly asking here because I don't know.
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  #43  
Old 14 May 2018, 11:12 AM
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I wonder if by "Republicans," Mouse means specifically "Republicans in power" as opposed to voters.
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  #44  
Old 14 May 2018, 11:48 AM
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But are those "in power" - I'm assuming members of the federal and state legislative bodies, gouvernors, and federal and state ministers - alone in shapeing the politics of the party? Here in Germany, the written program of a party, the document that establishes the main political believs and aims, is maybe not written, but decided upon by a party convention. Of course the word of a minister has weight, and there is much calling to the party line, but there have been rebellions, too. It would be difficult to have politics that clash with the will of the majority of the party members.

Is that fundamentally different in the US?
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  #45  
Old 14 May 2018, 12:33 PM
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If "Republicans in power" had decided on the party's presidential nominee in 2016, it wouldn't have been Trump.
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  #46  
Old 14 May 2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
Are they indeed? I mean, surely a lot of the head figures of the Repuplican Party are rich, including their President, but a lot of their voters that I can see in interviews or on pictures from rallies and townhall meeting look more like lower middle class or even working poor to me.

How is the makeup of the rank and file of the Party? What's the median income of the people at the National Convention? I'm honestly asking here because I don't know.
I'm sure there must be information like this available but as a small example, there is a TV show on right now called "Roseanne" which is a reboot of a very popular show from the '80s. One of the central points of the show is that the lower middle class couple voted for Trump because they bought the idea that he cared about them and that he'd bring jobs to their area. The kicker here is that the show's star genuinely did vote for Trump and she and the producers seem to think they are showing an American reality. In other words lower middle class and the working poor vote Republican and they specifically voted for Trump. Polls may demonstrate that Trump got a lot of votes from rich white folk but he got, and continues to get () support from poorer people too.
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  #47  
Old 14 May 2018, 01:10 PM
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It's nothing new, though; people vote against their own best interest time and time again.
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  #48  
Old 14 May 2018, 02:25 PM
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It's nothing new, though; people vote against their own best interest time and time again.
Maybe, not disagreeing with you on this, but there have also always been and always will be, people who would vote Conservative (Republican in the US) and who have good reasons for doing to that don't involve being racist or voting against their own interests.

Part of the reason IMO that Trump got in (and SOB why Ford might get in here next month) is that we underestimate the support given to the party we don't like.
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  #49  
Old 14 May 2018, 02:29 PM
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Especially when they're continually told what they want to hear: strange people are dangerous, the reason they're still poor is because the government's keeping them down instead of laws strongly favoring business owners instead of workers, being asked to tolerate people who have different religions or sexual orientations or gender identities instead of throwing rocks and spitting on them is wrong, etc.
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  #50  
Old 14 May 2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Especially when they're continually told what they want to hear: strange people are dangerous, the reason they're still poor is because the government's keeping them down instead of laws strongly favoring business owners instead of workers, being asked to tolerate people who have different religions or sexual orientations or gender identities instead of throwing rocks and spitting on them is wrong, etc.
The real biggie is usually lower taxes.
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  #51  
Old 14 May 2018, 02:55 PM
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The real biggie is usually lower taxes.
Here right now it's lower taxes, jobs and issues like housing, health care and utilities. These aren't issues that are of nearly as much concern to the rich or near rich as they are to those struggling to make ends meet. Sure there are also issues like "let's scrap sex education in schools" but even if that appeals to some people it's not the reason, for the most part, that people are going to vote Conservative. I'd be surprised if things were any different for the US.
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  #52  
Old 14 May 2018, 03:01 PM
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I'm assuming right now that most people voting Conservative are doing so to get rid of the Liberal government. Policy issues or campaign platforms is just a convenience rationalization. If the NDP weren't still slightly radioactive from Bob Rae, they'd have just as much of a chance as the Tories.
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  #53  
Old 14 May 2018, 03:05 PM
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I'm assuming right now that most people voting Conservative are doing so to get rid of the Liberal government. Policy issues or campaign platforms is just a convenience rationalization. If the NDP weren't still slightly radioactive from Bob Rae, they'd have just as much of a chance as the Tories.
For me the Tories are still very toxic from Mike Harris . And that they put Doug Ford, fercripessake, in as their leader just appalls me.

Last edited by Sue; 14 May 2018 at 03:17 PM.
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  #54  
Old 14 May 2018, 03:18 PM
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I'm already seeing attack adds based on Mike. The problem is that people want the Liberals to lose and there's no appealing option to replace them.
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  #55  
Old 14 May 2018, 03:47 PM
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The last US election convinced me that people vote based on feelings, and they will give as the reasons things that they come up with after deciding (based on feelings) who will get their vote. The reasons may be good or bad, but there's not much basis for believing that they are actually the motivating factor behind the choice.

It is usually not quite so obvious, but with Trump it was because his supporters had to shift their stated reasons a number of times when confronted by facts inconsistent with their reasons. (Obviously a number of them also refused to acknowledge contrary facts, which is also a good indicator of motivated reasoning, and is perhaps the last refuge for a decision that is unsupportable by socially acceptable reasoning.

By the way, I think this is true for almost everyone, not just Trump supporters. Some people are more rigorous about interrogating their reasons, and can change their minds when the reasons don't hold up to scrutiny. And it's more intense with more intense feelings. Trump was able to tap into some very strong visceral feelings -- primarily fear, but also pride, defiance, and the desire to be heroic. When people are scared, they pick the person who makes them feel safer.

ETA: I think people with less money who vote conservative are usually people who will say they believe that we live in a meritocracy (and extend a kind of exceptionalism for themselves). They are not rich because of bad luck, etc., but should be eventually because they are good and hard-working. Everyone else who isn't rich doesn't deserve to be (unless they do deserve it, but are being held back by liberal laws, policies, or social pressure).

Last edited by erwins; 14 May 2018 at 04:02 PM.
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  #56  
Old 14 May 2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Here right now it's lower taxes, jobs and issues like housing, health care and utilities.
Part of the problem is that a) that's a very common combination and b) there's an essential contradiction in there.

Nearly everybody wants lower taxes. Nearly everybody wants good jobs, decent housing, decent health care, functional utilities, clean air and water, functional roads and bridges, and to be able to be confident that what's in the can/box is actually what it says on the label.

Expecting the government to provide the second batch of those while still accomplishing the first doesn't work too well. (And, IMO, telling the government to get out of the way and then market forces will automatically provide the rest of the list works even worse.)

Lowering taxes for some people while raising them for others, while still at least working on the rest of the list, might indeed be possible. But that isn't usually what the clamor is for.
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  #57  
Old 15 May 2018, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
Are they indeed? I mean, surely a lot of the head figures of the Repuplican Party are rich, including their President, but a lot of their voters that I can see in interviews or on pictures from rallies and townhall meeting look more like lower middle class or even working poor to me.
These GOP supporters are probably the type who see themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires," not as working class citizens.

It doesn't change the fact that Republicans in Power will be able to GTFO if things go too far south, and their working class supporters will have to clean up the mess left behind.

There is no deeper zen behind the actions of Trump and co. The plain and simple truth, as illustrated by the crew of MST3K is They do not care.

Quote:
In other words lower middle class and the working poor vote Republican and they specifically voted for Trump. Polls may demonstrate that Trump got a lot of votes from rich white folk but he got, and continues to get support from poorer people too.
Ugh...this again. How Donald ended being painted as the champion of the working class, when he can barely mask his contempt for anyone making less than six figures, I'll never know. I honestly think everyone's trying to weasel out of the obvious conclusions. Donald Trump's campaign was centered around one idea and that one idea is, to put it simply, "Certain people qualify as deserving of the rights due to them as human beings and citizens, while certain other people do not." No points for guessing who falls into what categories.

In any case, the Working Class predominately went for Hillary, not Trump. Trump's voters were made up more of the rich white class. To the extent that the Working Class voted for Trump, they voted for him for a lot of reasons, and it probably wasn't out of economic concerns.

Though I'm starting to wish we could just retire the term "Working Class," period, because it's a coded way of saying, "White dudes." Women and PoC also work, but their concerns seldom seem to enter into any discussion regarding the working class.
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  #58  
Old 15 May 2018, 02:12 PM
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Though I'm starting to wish we could just retire the term "Working Class," period, because it's a coded way of saying, "White dudes." Women and PoC also work, but their concerns seldom seem to enter into any discussion regarding the working class.
Interesting point. I was just reading an article that headlined that it was about why the working poor voted for Trump. But the headline was misleading as it really only talked about why "white dudes" did, it never addressed why white women would vote for Trump. I mean we can argue til the cows come home what the word "predominantly" means but the reality is a lot of women did vote for Trump and a lot of those women were not middle or upper middle class women. The point of the article was to try and make sense of why people vote against their economic best interest but since women and PoC did vote for Trump why do they get excluded from so many of these kinds of articles?
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  #59  
Old 15 May 2018, 02:55 PM
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Simply put? Because as a society we still don't consider their views as relevant as the views of white men.
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  #60  
Old 07 June 2018, 06:30 PM
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He's at it again. According to the Washington Post and the National Journal, Trump is very annoyed with Canada. Why?

Trump imposed $16B in tariffs against our steel and aluminum exports to the US. They were imposed because Canada is a national security risk to the US. There was not economic rationale in the provisions he used. Apparently, we are now a bigger security risk to the US than Russia.

Canada responded by imposing $16B in tariffs against American goods (dollar for dollar).

Donald is pissed that we retaliated. Now he is looking to "make Canada pay" for retaliating.

He's also annoyed that six of the seven G7 leaders have signed a document condemning him for the tariffs. He feels that Merkel, May, Trudeau and Macron are treating him unfairly. But after calling each of them names and questioning their loyalties, one should not expect much deference to Trump.

I can't wait for you Americans to sort this clown out. He's impacting my life now.

What the heck did he think was going to
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