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  #61  
Old 13 June 2016, 07:04 PM
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...and serves as a type of lethal erection for millions of Americans.
Fixed that for ya, Washington Post.
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  #62  
Old 13 June 2016, 07:29 PM
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That Guardian writer's walkoff is sadly something I'm seeing happen already. My parents have immediately just been blathering on about terrorists and Muslims and have completely ignored that they literally filled my head growing up with all kinds of awful things about gay people and that my father in particular has frequently used horrible slurs about them and made snide comments about my gay friends. And they both explicitly vote for anti-gay politicians.

But yea, it's all Islam's fault. It's not like we have created a society that encourages this behavior in people of all faiths. Or that we have a society where LGBT individuals are already fearing for their lives all the time and this incident is only unusual because of the number of people killed at once.

They can wipe their hands clean yet again of any responsibility. Just like the Planned Parenthood shooting in November - good thing San Bernadino happened a few days later so we could sweep that shit right back under the rug.
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  #63  
Old 13 June 2016, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TallGeekyGirl View Post
Also, #TwoMenGettingToSecondBase for at least one picture
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  #64  
Old 13 June 2016, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Richard W is right. If we kicked all the Muslims out of the US the number of mass shootings would barely budge.
You may not have heard much about the EU Referendum in the UK (next week we vote on whether the UK should remain or leave the European Union), but one of the main 'leave' groups has been using the massacre for political gain.

Quote:
The Leave.EU group has been criticised after posting a message on social media linking the fatal shooting in Orlando to its campaign to exit the EU.
Nigel Farage, the leader of UKIP, is a member of this group and said the tweet was approved by an 'office junior'. Quite rightly both the official 'Leave' group and the official 'Remain' group have condemned the tweet. The vast majority of people who want to leave will also disapprove of the tweet, but it does show what some of the people who want to leave are like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36520163
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  #65  
Old 13 June 2016, 09:32 PM
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Landmarks have been taking on rainbow hues in memory of the victims worldwide. A few articles collecting them (that show different landmarks.)

World Landmarks Light Up In Glowing Tribute To Orlando Victims

Landmarks around the world are lighting up rainbow colours in response to the Orlando shooting at a gay nightclub

New Zealand: Sky Tower lights up for victims

My friend from Belgium (the one also going to school in Paris) reached out to me late yesterday when she realized how close I lived and we both lamented that it was her turn to have to make sure *I* was okay. I had been so caught up in everything I'd forgotten to let some people know I was safe that don't know me through, say, Facebook.
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  #66  
Old 13 June 2016, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware View Post
You may not have heard much about the EU Referendum in the UK (next week we vote on whether the UK should remain or leave the European Union), but ...
Nope. Never heard of the upcoming referendum in the UK concerning EU membership. I am a USAian after all and we don't follow the news in other countries.
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  #67  
Old 13 June 2016, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
And yet homosexuality has been legal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim country) since 1858.

The position on homosexuality in Islam is quite complicated. The Quran is pretty vague on the subject. There's references to homosexuality and punishment, but it's connected to rape and adultery so it's hard to know what the stance is on consensual and non-adulterous homosexuality.

The more revolting anti-gay content comes from the hadiths (collections of accounts and stories about Muhammad). Different schools of Islam follow different hadiths. Some Muslims dismiss the authority of the hadiths entirely (ETA: or consider them guidelines to be taken with a grain of salt? I'm not clear on this point. Can anybody enlighten me?)

The issue is more cultural than religious. This man lived in the US and was therefore part of American culture. He is clearly an outlier compared to other Muslims living in the US, who don't tend to go around killing gay people.
Blatherskite, thank you for that post. I had thought myself knowledgeable about Islam (but by no means an expert), and was sure that the hadiths were seen in the same way as the Quran IE the unchanging inerrant word of Allah. But apparently I was wrong.

I admit I had been posting in anger. I have a friend who lives in Orlando, who talked about Pulse, and was waiting to hear from him last night and I just lashed out. Luckily he's fine, he was out of town that night.
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  #68  
Old 13 June 2016, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
The more revolting anti-gay content comes from the hadiths (collections of accounts and stories about Muhammad). Different schools of Islam follow different hadiths. Some Muslims dismiss the authority of the hadiths entirely (ETA: or consider them guidelines to be taken with a grain of salt? I'm not clear on this point. Can anybody enlighten me?)
I'm currently taking an online course through edX on 'Islam through it's scriptures' (not to far into it atm)
Let me know if you can view this link or not. If not I can find a work around.
https://d37djvu3ytnwxt.cloudfront.ne...lam_6_8_16.pdf

eta- imo the ahadith are similar to sayings attributed to Jesus. Some people take them literally and some just pick and choose the one's that fit their personal beliefs.

Last edited by firefighter_raven; 13 June 2016 at 11:54 PM.
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  #69  
Old 14 June 2016, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by firefighter_raven View Post
Some people take them literally and some just pick and choose the one's that fit their personal beliefs.
That's religion in a nutshell, really...
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  #70  
Old 14 June 2016, 12:24 AM
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Coughdrops, I am glad that your friend is all right.
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  #71  
Old 14 June 2016, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Blatherskite, thank you for that post. I had thought myself knowledgeable about Islam (but by no means an expert), and was sure that the hadiths were seen in the same way as the Quran IE the unchanging inerrant word of Allah. But apparently I was wrong.
Aside from what Blatherskite said, there's this thing when it comes to religion where people say their holy book is the absolute inerrant word of their deity and they of course follow it 100% exactly, but in reality people are very good at rationalizing their interpretation (if they've even read it at all) and how it doesn't actually mean they should [insert extremist act here].

ETA: I am also glad your friend is okay.
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  #72  
Old 14 June 2016, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Spud Sabre View Post
Aside from what Blatherskite said, there's this thing when it comes to religion where people say their holy book is the absolute inerrant word of their deity and they of course follow it 100% exactly, but in reality people are very good at rationalizing their interpretation (if they've even read it at all) and how it doesn't actually mean they should [insert extremist act here].

ETA: I am also glad your friend is okay.
In a related topic, Vice's first episode in 2014 covered child suicide bombers in Afghanistan that the Taliban were using and it was interesting to see how the imam's sending them out either lied about or entirely omitted what was in the Koran.
For anyone that wishes to see it. Nsfw warning for graphic footage following the detonation by a suicide bomber in the middle of a crowd. The segment starts at 11:42.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOndtUcRXdU
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  #73  
Old 14 June 2016, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
That's religion in a nutshell, really...
True but before someone starts about how it's religion that makes people do things there isn't any indication that non-religious people are less likely to do this kind of thing - or almost any other thing for that matter. Basically, that's human beings in a nutshell. (On the one hand, I do kind of appreciate the argument because it puts some of those who would blame specific other religions on the defensive by turning their own argument against them. But it's just as flawed.)
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  #74  
Old 14 June 2016, 02:35 AM
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But religion serves to obfuscate the "people" aspect. Crazy ideas attached to religion don't get challenged as readily as crazy ideas atttached to individuals with no religious basis. Religion is a shield of sorts, not the only one to be sure, to proper scrutiny of beliefs and ideas.
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  #75  
Old 14 June 2016, 02:37 AM
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Not sure if I missed this being mentioned, but the killer has also been described as a racist. In addition to the attack being a homophobic hate crime, it seems that he may have chosen that club on that night in order to target Hispanics as well.
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  #76  
Old 14 June 2016, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
But religion serves to obfuscate the "people" aspect. Crazy ideas attached to religion don't get challenged as readily as crazy ideas atttached to individuals with no religious basis. Religion is a shield of sorts, not the only one to be sure, to proper scrutiny of beliefs and ideas.
That may or may not be true. If it is, as long as there is no significant known difference in the end result, one might question whether such ideas have any significant effect on behaviour at all. They are often used to explain behaviour without any scientifically valid evidence.
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  #77  
Old 14 June 2016, 06:17 AM
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I've heard on the radio here that the attacker was a (frequent?) visitor to the Pulse himself and that he is said to have used a gay-friendly dating site.

Can anybody confirm these informations?
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  #78  
Old 14 June 2016, 08:19 AM
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The LA Times is reporting that witnesses said he frequented the club and used a gay dating app: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/orl...z&ocid=U007DHP

Quote:
Kevin West, a regular at Pulse nightclub, said Omar Mateen messaged him on and off for a year before the shooting using the gay chat and dating app Jack'd.
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  #79  
Old 14 June 2016, 08:32 AM
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Thanks for the kind words everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
The LA Times is reporting that witnesses said he frequented the club and used a gay dating app: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/orl...z&ocid=U007DHP
You know, it isn't surprising if true. Most crimes violent or otherwise take place in locations the suspect is familiar with or feels safe at.
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  #80  
Old 14 June 2016, 12:25 PM
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The attacker frequenting a gay nightclub and using a gay dating app could point to an underlying reason for his apparent problem with gays kissing in public and LBGT people in general. He could have been trying to cope with the fact that he himself was gay.

Which, if true, doesn't make the whole thing any less tragic and horrible, but would put another question mark behind "islamistic terror".
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