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  #161  
Old 09 May 2018, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
So what? Spaces to make the message long enough to post.
That wasn’t helpful. I know you’re taking on a lot of posters at once, but your reasoning has been kind of hard to follow in this thread, and answers like this don’t help illuminate it.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 09 May 2018 at 03:24 AM.
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  #162  
Old 09 May 2018, 03:36 AM
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I like a good "So what?" more than most but RichardM is effectively saying "So what?" to his own posts. OK. So, nothing. Just a bunch of irrelevant links, I guess.
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  #163  
Old 09 May 2018, 03:51 AM
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It seems to me that there are a number of questions being debated, and/or set up as straw men in this discussion. I'm going to attempt to pull some of them out.

1. Should a white American teenager wear a qipao dress?

2. Should a white American teenager be able to wear a qipao dress without criticism?

3. Should a white American teenager who posts photos of herself on social media wearing a qipao, and possibly making a stereotypical gesture, be able to do so without criticism?

4. Should a white American teenager (or anyone) be able to wear a qipao dress (or anything else) without being bullied?

5. Under what conditions can people from dominant cultures take or use things from other cultures?

6. Should they be able to do so without criticism?

7. Are there definite answers to these questions?

(I'm comfortable giving a definite answer to #3. I don't think anyone here supports bullying. I am not sure the teenager in question was bullied, but if she was, that is absolutely wrong. I'm not sure what the specific bullying allegations were--I just haven't seen them.)
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  #164  
Old 09 May 2018, 05:18 AM
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#7 No. Almost nothing having to do with human interaction has a definate answer.
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  #165  
Old 09 May 2018, 05:24 AM
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I would add:

8. Can white people criticize other white people for cultural appropriation?

9. Is accusing someone of cultural appropriation cyber bullying?
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  #166  
Old 09 May 2018, 05:36 AM
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Ack -- my one answer should be to number 4, not 3.

Also, I'll add one more that I've been having trouble wording, but I hope I got it.

10. Are questions of cultural appropriation more about a process than about getting to any "right" answer?
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  #167  
Old 09 May 2018, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I don't think anyone here supports bullying. I am not sure the teenager in question was bullied, but if she was, that is absolutely wrong. I'm not sure what the specific bullying allegations were--I just haven't seen them.
The internet being what the internet is, I’m sure at this point we could find some ugly posts about this situation that we’d all condemn as bullying behavior. The question is, were the tweets the OP originally listed bullying, as some feel? Was it bullying to call her out in the first place, or do comments have to be pejorative, cruel, violent, or badgering to fall under that category?

Tweets from the OP:

Quote:
“My culture is NOT” your prom dress, he wrote, adding profanity for effect.

“I’m proud of my culture,” he wrote in another post. “For it to simply be subject to American consumerism and cater to a white audience, is parallel to colonial ideology.”

“This isn’t ok,” wrote someone with the user name Jeannie. “I wouldn’t wear traditional Korean, Japanese or any other traditional dress and I’m Asian. I wouldn’t wear traditional Irish or Swedish or Greek dress either. There’s a lot of history behind these clothes. Sad.”
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  #168  
Old 09 May 2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
The question is, were the tweets the OP originally listed bullying, as some feel?
That's a reasonable question to the extent that we're discussing the specific case that set off this thread; but it seems to me that although we are still discussing that, we're also discussing the question in general of whether it's ever OK, in any fashion and any tone of voice, to criticize someone for wearing, in any context, the clothes of another culture. Some people seem to be saying that it's never OK to do so (though a refusal to answer specific questions and an apparent determination to redirect the conversation into an irrelevant discussion of a definition nobody's challenging makes it difficult in RichardM's case to tell.)


-- the specific quotes you cited don't sound like bullying to me, with the possible exception of the profanity. I wouldn't say that it would make it bullying if the poster said, for example, 'not your damn prom dress', but it might well be if the poster had said, for example, 'you stupid c--t'.

And it would be bullying if the poster then followed her home, or threatened to find out where she lived, or filled up her social media accounts with repeated posts for weeks on end; even if they didn't swear while doing it.

I understand that if she got one tweet each from three thousand people over three weeks that may be as upsetting (though in a somewhat different fashion) as three thousand tweets from one person over three weeks; but I don't think that makes the original criticism, or the first handful of them, bullying; at least, unless the first posters actively tried to drum up the next three thousand.

ETA: erwins, I like your #10.

And, LPP, about your #8: why should the non-white people always have to do all the work?

Should men not be allowed to criticize other men for harassing women?

And agreeing with GenYus about #7; with the possible exception of #4. I say 'possible' because some seem to consider any criticism to be bullying.

Last edited by thorny locust; 09 May 2018 at 01:49 PM.
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  #169  
Old 09 May 2018, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
I would add:

8. Can white people criticize other white people for cultural appropriation?

9. Is accusing someone of cultural appropriation cyber bullying?
I think negatively commenting on someone's attire, a total stranger's attire at that, in a public forum and for no reason other than in an attempt to shame that person is bullying. I think the term bullying gets thrown around a lot and I can agree that we need to be careful about using that term but in the context of this specific situation I am very comfortable saying that joining in a pile on of negative tweets directed at a teenager is cyberbullying.
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  #170  
Old 09 May 2018, 02:25 PM
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Thorny locust, the omitted profanity in the first tweet was "goddamned." And her responses have included the f-word, so I'm not thinking that her delicate sensibilities were offended, although it is possible that the religious usage could have caused offense. I didn't see anything in the articles I've read that amounted to bullying. In addition, when I was looking, I found many articles that were along the lines of the OP, and many that used it as a springboard to criticize or mock the general concept of cultural appropriation. But I did not find any articles criticising her. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but the vast bulk of commentary that I'm seeing tilts strongly in her favor.

Sue, I don't think the.purpose of the tweets was to shame. I think they were about expressing anger and asserting identity for people who have been oppressed in a number of ways. It was more about them than about her. Can you quote some that you see as shaming?

ETA: To address #1 and #10, I think it is about engaging in a process, not about getting to one correct answer. People will disagree. You aren't locked into one course of action just because someone you think is entirely unreasonable objects. But, you should think about it, and you should seek out opinions about it, and you should really listen with an open mind, and try hard to understand the points of view and the feelings of the people whose culture you are borrowing from. Ask and think about whether there are things you can do to make it more respectful or acceptable. And you should think about the stakes, from a generous perspective. Meaning, if it's "just a dress," then maybe you can just choose a different one. I think the only categorically wrong action is to use something from another culture without engaging in any thought or process at all.

Last edited by erwins; 09 May 2018 at 02:42 PM.
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  #171  
Old 09 May 2018, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
for no reason other than in an attempt to shame that person
Why do you think that was the only reason? Or even any part of the reason?

The tweets you quoted read to me as an attempt to defend something the tweeters think is important. They may well have meant to educate, not to shame.


-- years ago, I had a farm intern working here who was massively resistant to any attempt at correction, and would get angry at me if I told her, however politely, that she was doing something wrong. I said to her that there had to be some acceptable way for me to tell her if she wasn't doing the work right, and would she please tell me what it was. She thought about it for a minute, and said that no, she didn't think that there was.

She was doing work that, if done wrong, could result in the need for considerable extra work later, or even in the loss of a crop. Having no way to tell her 'no, don't do it that way, this is why, do it this way instead' without getting her angry was a major problem. But she couldn't, apparently, tell the difference between criticism -- any criticism at all -- and an attempt to shame her.


Telling somebody that they're upsetting other people is not, in itself, bullying. One can of course argue whether the people are being reasonable to be upset about the specific instance. But if no one's allowed to say that they're upset, how is anyone ever going to find out that there's a problem? And no, the problem doesn't just go away if you forbid everybody from talking about it.
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  #172  
Old 09 May 2018, 11:16 PM
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As a side note (I think I've said enough, if not too much, on the specific OT), if I get a chance, I think I will ask a friend I have who is heavily into belly dancing, and particularly into the associated costuming (she produces them professionally and has published books on the topic), if there's any debate in that community about cultural appropriation.
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  #173  
Old 09 May 2018, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
As a side note (I think I've said enough, if not too much, on the specific OT), if I get a chance, I think I will ask a friend I have who is heavily into belly dancing, and particularly into the associated costuming (she produces them professionally and has published books on the topic), if there's any debate in that community about cultural appropriation.
I believe that the first time I ever heard the term "cultural appropriation" it was in the context of belly dancing.
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  #174  
Old 09 May 2018, 11:27 PM
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We have had a long discussion on the ULMB about that topic as well.
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  #175  
Old 09 May 2018, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1958Fury View Post
I believe that the first time I ever heard the term "cultural appropriation" it was in the context of belly dancing.
We had a lengthy thread here on the subject not that long ago.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread...=belly+dancing

ETA: well 4 years isn't all that long ago is it?

Last edited by Sue; 09 May 2018 at 11:37 PM.
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  #176  
Old 10 May 2018, 01:40 AM
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I feel similarly about that issue. It's a bit of an overreaction to something that I don't consider a serious problem but I do consider the general ignorance (in every sense of that term) of these issues, as revealed when these reactions to reactions happen, to be a very serious problem. I wouldn't expect someone just beginning to learn belly dancing to know about it but I definitely would expect, for example, an instructor to. And I would hope they also do something to try to give more control back to the people whose culture it once was.

That control is the main issue to me: A lot of people simply aren't aware that many minorities, and I would say women too, in the Americas and Europe have lost control of who defines them. Some, like almost everyone of Asian and African descent, were never allowed any control to begin with. Their 'culture' was almost entirely defined by white men. That's why we still have this debate about Apu and belly dancing and Kwanza and many other things: The homeostasis of deeply ingrained power imbalance such as racism demands that even people who don't accept that imbalance oppose every time any individual in one of these groups that has been denied full power tries to gain even a little control over their own cultural definitions. Human society is built to preserve the current power structure and we almost all of us assist it to do so without even noticing it.
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  #177  
Old 24 May 2018, 01:56 PM
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Default Jaya Jaitly slams Priyanka for Royal wedding dress, gets roasted by fans

Priyanka Chopra may have stolen hearts when she reached Windsor Castle to attend Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's wedding, looking gorgeous in a lilac outfit. For the royal wedding, the actress opted for a lilac Vivienne Westwood outfit, which boasted of a dramatic neckline, and a statement hat. Former Samata Party president and textile revivalist Jaya Jaitly, however, wasn't exactly pleased with Priyanka's choice of attire. Jaitly took to social media to criticise Priyanka for having dressed like a ''British aristrocrat'' rather than representing India in a saree.

https://www.indiatoday.in/lifestyle/...683-2018-05-23

I put this here rather than start yet another thread. I think it comes under the heading, frankly, of "women cannot win no matter what they do - there will ALWAYS be someone out there telling them where they went wrong".
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  #178  
Old 24 May 2018, 02:36 PM
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D'oh!

Wow. If I said "Shouldn't you be wearing a sari?" to an Indian woman, I'd be called a racist - and I'd feel like one, too.
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  #179  
Old 24 May 2018, 02:40 PM
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And you can bet had she worn a sari and no doubt would have looked gorgeous in it there would be people all over the place accusing her of trying to upstage the bride .
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  #180  
Old 24 May 2018, 03:02 PM
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She's not representing her culture if she chooses to dress in western clothes? What a shallow, materialistic idea of representation.
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