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  #41  
Old 03 November 2018, 05:54 PM
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Re: Onyx_TKD and Richard W

And yet, I suspect a great many more than “one” could create a work of similar artistic merit, the bulk of whom will amount to office workers remembered for no more than their pleasant doodles amongst friends and family speaking at their funeral. Because the value of art isn’t about the art, it’s about the name, the brand.

By the way, if anyone knows an agent who’s looking to represent yet another “art is pain” / “coping with PTSD through (science-)fiction” author, please do give me a PM. Asking for a friend...
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  #42  
Old 03 November 2018, 10:45 PM
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Re: Onyx_TKD and Richard W

And yet, I suspect a great many more than “one” could create a work of similar artistic merit, the bulk of whom will amount to office workers remembered for no more than their pleasant doodles amongst friends and family speaking at their funeral. Because the value of art isn’t about the art, it’s about the name, the brand.

By the way, if anyone knows an agent who’s looking to represent yet another “art is pain” / “coping with PTSD through (science-)fiction” author, please do give me a PM. Asking for a friend...
I'm not sure what you intended with the quotes around "one," but if you were quoting my post, my use of "one" was as the indefinite pronoun, not an implication that only one artist could produce a work of that artistic merit.

Yes, there are a lot of people with great artistic talent. Some of them will make it big and/or become famous, through luck and/or good marketing. Other people with tons of artistic potential will never "make it" and will make their living in other fields for various reasons, including worse luck, poorer/lack of marketing, or a perception that becoming a professional artist is an unattainable or otherwise unwise goal. (That's not really unique to the arts, honestly, although it does hit artists particularly hard.) But disparaging a successful artist by claiming that "most" people could do the same and that his art thus shouldn't be valuable isn't doing anything to help equally talented but less successful artists--it's disparaging the value of art in general by valuing it based on the superficial appearance of difficulty rather than the subtler elements that make a skilled artist's work speak to people.

Finally, it isn't a binary scale of outrageous success with works selling for millions and never doing more than doodling for friends and family. There is an enormous middle ground of working artists who either succeed in artistic jobs or successfully sell their art at a smaller scale (e.g., selling more affordable prints of their work to many people rather than selling the one original to a millionaire).
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  #43  
Old 04 November 2018, 02:55 AM
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Because the value of art isn’t about the art, it’s about the name, the brand.
You keep saying "value" as if we're supposed to understand what you mean by that.

If you mean the value as in monetary market value or value for example to a museum curator, there's nothing particularly shocking about the fact that a rather plain (and tiny) portrait of a woman ever so slightly smiling should fetch a much higher price and warrant a better chance of making it to the wall if it was done in the 15th century* by Leonardo than if it were done last week by an unknown artist. Yet, if you see some gross disparity in that, then it seems just the sort of thing many have supposed Banksy's productions are meant to address.

Unless, I guess, you are saying that it fails to do so in any meaningful way, I would think it's exactly the kind of piece people who make this complaint would recognize. Perhaps it does take an appreciation for critique by becoming an egregious example of the objects of critique. I get that not everyone appreciates that sense of irony but at the very least it seems a strange time to make the complaint.

It's sort of like "Taking a knee is too much like a protest!" Well, yeah, it is supposed to be a protest. Not a great analogy but...

* oops, well, 16th... by a few years
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  #44  
Old 04 November 2018, 03:27 AM
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Since were talking about a million dollar painting that amounts to some fancy clip art that failed to pass fully through a shredder, I should have thought it was clear value refers to monetary value. Consider my commentary a reaction to the awe with which people seem to refer to such high-valued works, as if there is something particularly unique, “only a genius could have done it” level of insight or skill involved.

It’s not and there isn’t.

If this Banksy character wants to make a joke of his or her profession, then perhaps they can paint a picture of a toilet seat clogged with toilet paper (using only black spray paint, of course), sell it, and donate the proceeds to encouraging as yet undiscovered artists. Think of how many would-be professionals he could recognize with that kind of money.

As it stands, he’s just another asshole who's made it, and now gets to thumb his nose at the people who let him make it and the people he stepped over on the way to the top.

They ought to make a movie about him, actually. They could call it A Star is Born.
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  #45  
Old 04 November 2018, 04:04 AM
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Is the art of Banksy the painting or the way they've managed their art to where a destroyed painting by them is worth more than the intact version?
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  #46  
Old 04 November 2018, 04:18 AM
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The art is the painting. Full stop. You don’t get to piss on the canvas and call it a water sculpture. Well, unless of course you’re a big name artist, in which case it’s effing brilliant, something none of these hacks painting water colours could have ever thought of.
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  #47  
Old 04 November 2018, 04:20 AM
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What? Where are those rules written?
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  #48  
Old 04 November 2018, 04:27 AM
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D'oh!

I guess the only way for me to make my point would be to piss on a canvas and call it a water sculpture, then.

Shall I post the picture of the finished work here?
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  #49  
Old 04 November 2018, 10:35 AM
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I sure hope you will.

Since you haven't really commented enough on his actual works to say anything meaningful about his history, it's hard to take your criticism of that seriously. Plus, your complaints about this piece so far seem to be on the level of "it's too easy" (I don't know what has to do with anything even if it were true) and "it's against the rules!" Well, duh. I think if you feel that strongly about his work then you should at least actually take a serious look at it. There's a good book on it that came out a few years ago, new edition this year. I bet you could find it at a library. I think if you give it a chance and really try to see what is going on there you'd begin to see why he became so well-known. You might even find some of it compelling.

The weird thing to me is that it's not as if his work is inaccessible or opaque. Just my opinion but I think it tends to be refreshingly straightforward in most cases. So it's weird to me that people compare it to Art for Arts Sake and so forth. I feel like, Are you sure we're talking about the same Banksy??
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  #50  
Old 04 November 2018, 01:38 PM
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I think all I can do at this point is give this piece the level of attention it deserves.
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  #51  
Old 04 November 2018, 01:53 PM
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Which is about 500 words, then I guess. That's pretty good for someone who doesn't even like the genre. I honestly do think you would like some of her art though. I could be wrong but it's not really about liking or disliking anyway.
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  #52  
Old 05 November 2018, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onyx_TKD View Post
... Yes, that picture looks "simple," but the subjects are instantly recognizable, and (to me, at least, and presumably others who like it) it is aesthetically pleasing and evokes a distinct emotion.
My mother-in-law does aquarell paintings as a hobby. For our daughter, we asked her to recreate a drawing by a Swedish artist that shows a small child and a friendly bear.

When she presented the finished picture, she commented on how often she had to re-do the bear's face to make it look friendly as in the original. Just a few lines or a drop of paint can change the emotions in a picture significantly. So, being able to convey emotions with just a few strokes of a pencil or a spray can is an art!

Additionally, Banksy most often does works that are not meant to be sold (painting on buildings makes it difficult to sell the artwork), and his plan to destroy the painting the moment it is sold was a comment on how the art market works. Blaiming him to be in it just for the money seems a misunderstanding to me.
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  #53  
Old 05 November 2018, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
sell it, and donate the proceeds to encouraging as yet undiscovered artists.
I think the fact that his artwork sells for at least £1 million is the encouragement to as yet undiscovered artists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
The art is the painting. Full stop.
Several years ago I saw a clip of an art installation that consisted of what appeared to be a fancy decorative vase, but which was designed to smash each day when a viewer approached it and triggered some kind of sensor. It was a bit of a prank, true, but the point was to instigate an emotion - in this case, sheer blind panic.

Would you say in that case that the art was supposed to be just a vase and it lost credibility because it kept being shattered every day? Or does your dismissal of stunt art only apply when the artist is famous?
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  #54  
Old 05 November 2018, 05:08 PM
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It seems Dali and Goya have gotten into that art scene:

Selfie attempt results in damage to artwork by Salvador Dali and Francisco Goya
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/europ...damage-artwork

I'm wondering why a freestanding tall, thin wall like that was not bolted to the wall or secured in some other way.
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  #55  
Old 05 November 2018, 06:04 PM
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Sorry for responding to this one a bit late, but

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Yes, sorry to pick on Skeptic but that criticism is a bit like "For goodness sake, I've read Great Expectations and I could have written out all those words in that order!"

(Great Expectations is the first title I thought of for this post, but that may be because I've got Kathy Acker's version of it sitting by my bed waiting for me to read it, and I think she may have been making a somewhat similar point to this, at least as part of what she was doing.)
I'm not familiar with Acker, but she seems to be influenced by Borges' "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote" - in which the fictional 20th century Frenchman of the title rewrites a portion of Cervantes' work word for word in the original 17th century Spanish, and in doing so - because he is a different man than Cervantes - creates a much richer and more subtle work than the original.
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  #56  
Old 05 November 2018, 06:33 PM
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Yes, there must be elements of that in what Kathy Acker has done as well. (I've read most if not all of Borges's stories - I've got a volume that calls itself Collected Fictions as well as Labyrinths, which is entirely included in the other one I think). I'm not sure to what extent she's rewriting Great Expectations or to what extent she's just using it as a jumping-off point though. For a start, hers is much shorter than Dickens's. I'll find out when I read it!

For comparison, here's the first few lines of each. Dickens:

Quote:
My father's family name being Pirrip, and my christian name Philip, my infant tongue could make of both names nothing longer or more explicit than Pip. So I called myself Pip, and came to be called Pip.

I give Pirrip as my father's family name, on the authority of his tombstone and my sister - Mrs Joe Gargery, who married the blacksmith.
Acker:

Quote:
My father's family name being Pirrip, and my christian name Philip, my infant tongue could make of both names nothing longer or more explicit than Peter. So I called myself Peter, and came to be called Peter.

I give Pirrip as my father's family name, on the authority of his tombstone and my sister - Mrs Joe Gargery, who married the blacksmith.
(It's even easier for me to rewrite that than it was for her - I can just cut and paste but she would have had to have typed it out all over again!) It diverges rapidly after this, though. Dickens talks about Pip's getting his idea of his parents from their tombstones and reading symbolism into the style of the lettering, whereas Acker talks about the suicide of Peter's mother and his use of tarot cards. The chapter headings in my copy of Dickens don't match the ones Acker has used either, but that might be down to the edition.

Great Expectations (by Dickens) might not have been the best work to think of for my point, though. As I said, I think I was reminded of it as a title because of Acker's version sitting by my bed.

My point might have been better made by referring to a short poem, and somebody thinking "It's only got fifty words in it. I could type out those fifty words in under a minute!"
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  #57  
Old 05 November 2018, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
...You don’t get to piss on the canvas and call it a water sculpture...
The contexts in which this is a true statement are far outweighed, both in size and influence, by those in which it isn't.
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  #58  
Old 05 November 2018, 07:52 PM
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Hmmm....

It looks like Acker has written a Don Quixote as well.
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  #59  
Old 05 November 2018, 08:00 PM
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Here's today's Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal cartoon about modern art:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/modern-art-2
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  #60  
Old 05 November 2018, 08:15 PM
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I was in an art museum with my kids a couple of months ago. Before we walked into the modern art wing I 'predicted' that there would be at least one piece which was just a square. There were three.
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