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  #501  
Old 02 November 2018, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
Nitpicky nitpick: It should technically be written in all caps, as BRAT, as Subaru claimed it was an acronym for "Bi-drive Recreational All-terrain Transporter".
It had two engines?
Or it's engine was attracted to both male and female engines?


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  #502  
Old 02 November 2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Nope. We just sat in the truck bed, or on whatever happened to be in there. Sometimes even on the fenders or the edge of the bed (not recommended if the road was bumpy, at least not unless you were holding on really hard.)
The one we rode in had an extra fuel tank behind the cab, which made for a nice bench seat.

Yeah, we sat on top of a fuel tank in the open back of a pick up truck going at highway speeds! (but you tell that to kids these days ...)
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  #503  
Old 02 November 2018, 05:08 PM
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Probably somebody was smoking, too.
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  #504  
Old 03 November 2018, 12:09 AM
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Started to put this in Crash and Burn but since it appears there were no serious injuries, I'll put it here. While watching the CBS National News, they showed a cell phone clip of a tornado in Tampa. The person doing the recording or maybe just in the same car, commented about the tornado in view - "Holy uh sugar beets."
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  #505  
Old 03 November 2018, 03:22 AM
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I bought a six pack of Son of a Baptist Coffee Stout, a beer brewed with coffee beans. Does that mean this beer contains caffeine?
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  #506  
Old 05 November 2018, 07:33 AM
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If it did, shouldn't it say so on the tin?

My stupid question:

I saw "Bad Neighbours" on tv yesterday. In the film, a fraternity moves into a house in a quite (suburbian?) neighbourhood and annoys the neighbours with their loud all-night parties.

That made me wonder: Would that be possible in real live? Are there no building or zoning laws that would prohibit a frat house (which is basically a party location, not or not mainly used for living) in a residential area? How strict are zoning laws in the US, anyway? Or does that depend on the state?
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  #507  
Old 05 November 2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
That made me wonder: Would that be possible in real live? Are there no building or zoning laws that would prohibit a frat house (which is basically a party location, not or not mainly used for living) in a residential area? How strict are zoning laws in the US, anyway? Or does that depend on the state?
I suspect this is one of those things that could depend not only on the state, but even the county or city the houses were located in. I live in a mid-sized apartment building in a college town and on the street I live on (for several blocks in each direction) there's a mix of small businesses, several sorority houses, houses that have been sub-divided into apartments, other purpose built apartment buildings, and single family homes. Not sure where the guys' organizations wound up although there's Greek letters all over the residential parts of town. While it does get a bit loud and rowdy on some weekends it's never been like in the movies - usually just some college kids milling about with plastic cups, music played loud enough to hear across the street but not window rattling loud, and maybe a fire pit going when it's not too cold out yet.
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  #508  
Old 05 November 2018, 02:37 PM
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I think it depends on the local zoning laws or even what the college decrees. Where I went to school, fraternity houses were on campus while sorority houses were off-campus, across the street from the university alongside apartments, rental houses, hotels, and businesses. The area was mixed-zoning use. I didn't live near them, but I know the sorority houses often had parties and loud music during Rush Week (when they recruit new members). Not sure if the frat houses were anything like the movies, but if they were on campus their noise levels were probably monitored by the campus security/police. I don't think frat or sorority houses could be located in strictly residential (suburban) neighborhoods, but that would be up to local zoning laws to decide.
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  #509  
Old 05 November 2018, 03:00 PM
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Also, zoning boards may not have the power to do more than levy fines or attach the property. They may not have the power to evict the residents. If they could evict residents, that process could be very time consuming.
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  #510  
Old 05 November 2018, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
I bought a six pack of Son of a Baptist Coffee Stout, a beer brewed with coffee beans. Does that mean this beer contains caffeine?
I believe so, but I don't think it's a lot. Each batch is brewed with different coffee so the amount may vary?
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  #511  
Old 05 November 2018, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
Are there no building or zoning laws that would prohibit a frat house (which is basically a party location, not or not mainly used for living) in a residential area?
Are you saying you understand frat houses are simply party locations, and not residences? Because that was not true where I grew up, not do I believe it's true here in Seattle.

Or are you saying that if a particular frat house is not also a residence, can it be banned? I think everyone else answered that.

IME, fraternity and sorority houses tend to be bunched together, and some of their neighbors definitely do not appreciate them. A lot depends on the social goals and reputation of the organization. Not all of them are party hearty places.

Seaboe
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  #512  
Old 05 November 2018, 03:45 PM
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Under German law, you would need a building permit to convert a residential building into what - in my opinion - would amount to a building that is at least partly used as a venue or event center. That permit wouldn't be granted in an area that is designed (by local law) as a residential area.

But fraternities/sororities in the American sense don't exist in Germany, our "Studentenverbindung" have a different tradition and their houses are used differntly.

Thanks for the information!
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  #513  
Old 05 November 2018, 03:51 PM
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I think the movie doesn't accurately portray fraternities or frat houses. Most localities would require zoning to have such a house based solely on occupancy. A lot of the other things that go on would be covered by laws and ordinances.
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  #514  
Old 05 November 2018, 04:48 PM
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Yeah. Like others have said:

In most parts of the US, frat houses would be allowed or not based on the number of people living there, whether they're related to one another or not, and possibly (if rent is being charged) whether restricting occupancy to members of a fraternity was considered discriminatory. I don't think it would be considered an event venue based on having a lot of parties unless admission was being charged. As far as the activities that may or may not go on there, they would be subject to local laws that also apply to any residence. These wouldn't ban such places outright, but could effectively prevent them from coming into existence. Again, even allowing for the exaggeration of the movies, not all fraternities are the party-all-the-time types seen in comedy films. I would think most are not.

A college or university obviously controls what is allowed on their own property. They may also have rules concerning what their fraternities can do off-campus, but this would be a more backhanded way of limiting frat houses by controlling the students. Another factor is what the parent organization (the national or international organization - there usually is one) allows its local chapters to do.
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  #515  
Old 05 November 2018, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
If it did, shouldn't it say so on the tin?
I think only if the caffeine is added on its own, as an ingredient. It doesn't have to be listed if it simply occurs naturally as part of one of the other ingredients. So Coke has to list caffeine as an ingredient, but a tin of coffee doesn't have to mention that it contains caffeine because it's just a natural part of the coffee. In the case of the beer I asked about, it has to list coffee on the ingredients, but it's doesn't have to specifically say anything about caffeine.
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  #516  
Old 05 November 2018, 05:02 PM
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OK. I serve on a town planning board in New York State. One of the things we do, from time to time, is rewrite the zoning. So I'm not a lawyer; but I do know something about it.

Zoning laws are decided not only by states but also by individual municipality. (A municipality may be a county, city, town, incorporated village, or whatever words the particular state uses for these things, which may vary.) State laws control what the possible range is of zoning laws within that state, but the municipalities write the actual laws, and may have quite a bit of discretion within them.

There are municipalities in the USA, including some in New York State, with no zoning whatsoever. I don't know whether any of them are cities, though; the ones I know of are fairly rural.

It's possible to write a zoning law that doesn't allow fraternity (or sorority, I very much doubt you could legally ban one and not the other) houses in residential areas, but it's tricky. They're not "party houses" in the sense of a building used only for parties, after all. They're residences; people live in them. They may indeed be very likely to have more parties, and more raucous parties, than most other residences; but they're still residences.

Some places try to limit the number of non-related people who can live in one residence, but that's tricky also, because you have to define "related", which would have to include being related by marriage -- is the Town, or whatever, going to go around demanding to see people's marriage certificates? And do they really want to say you can't have those four people living in one house if two of them haven't gotten formally married?

(Here's a discussion of that issue in New York State law.)

You can, apparently, write zoning to specifically define and address sororities and fraternities, and/or student housing in general.
Here's a pdf discussing this as a general USA issue.

So if the particular municipality has done that, and if they've written their ordinance so that it meets state and federal law on the subject, then whether a fraternity house could set up in a specific suburban neighborhood within that municipality would depend on how the law was written.

If it were illegal according to a properly written local law to do so: yes, they could shut it down. How long it would take them to legally get the residents out would probably depend on tenants' rights law in that area. [ETA: And, possibly, also on whether the fraternity appealed the decision, and/or took it to court. If the law was written properly, the municipality would almost certainly win; but it might take a while.]

If the municipality doesn't already have such a law, the use is grandfathered. They can go ahead and write such a law, and use it to prevent additional such uses, but they can't shut down a frat that set up before they wrote it.

The area might also have applicable noise ordinances, parking ordinances, etc. Or it might not. Those wouldn't allow shutting it down, but they might allow making it shut up (in the sense of becoming quiet.) -- depending on what's going on, they might also be able to arrest everyone for either committing, or allowing, underage drinking. Most undergraduate college students in the USA aren't of legal drinking age, and in some states you can also get arrested under social hosting laws for allowing underage drinking.

Last edited by thorny locust; 05 November 2018 at 05:14 PM.
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  #517  
Old 05 November 2018, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
There are municipalities in the USA, including some in New York State, with no zoning whatsoever. I don't know whether any of them are cities, though; the ones I know of are fairly rural.
Isn't Houston kind of famous for basically having no zoning whatsoever?
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  #518  
Old 05 November 2018, 05:30 PM
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Thorny, while we have your attention, perhaps you know the answer to my (related) stupid question.

When the drinking age in New York was increased to 21, there was a "loophole" of sorts that allowed the parent or legal guardian of an under-21-year-old to supply said teenager with alcoholic beverages. A variety of online resources that recognize this imply that this is legal both at home and in restaurants, etc.

Yet I constantly see places that serve alcohol make it plain that youngsters can't drink, and sometimes aren't even allowed on premises. I'm sure it's the bar/restaurant's right to do this if they want to, but they always make it sound like it's the law, rather than their desire to not have to establish parenthood/guardianship. Is there some subtlety of the law that further limits the ability of a parent from allowing a teen a moderate and responsible amount of alcohol?
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  #519  
Old 05 November 2018, 05:40 PM
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Hmm. You're right. [ETA: to WildaBeast.] Though there's some disagreement as to how close they are to accomplishing similar things by other means.

They do have some development regulations; but apparently no use regulations. Whether there's anything in the development regulations that would discourage fraternity houses I don't know (and really shouldn't spend the rest of this day trying to find out.)

ETA: to ChasFink: that's not a zoning question! I've no idea. I do know that my father was told, way back in the 1960's when I was 17 (and the legal age was 18), that the restaurant was refusing to serve me because they had no way to have proof that he was my father. My father, not being an obnoxious person in restaurants (or usually outside them, either), agreed that that was reasonable.
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  #520  
Old 06 November 2018, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
OKYou can, apparently, write zoning to specifically define and address sororities and fraternities, and/or student housing in general.
Here's a pdf discussing this as a general USA issue.
Thank you very much, that is a comprehensive answer to my question!

ETA: And the paper even references movies in regard to what goes on at frat houses!
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