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  #41  
Old 15 January 2018, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Faux News isn't saying that "normal" people are bigots - they're saying that "normal" people use words like "$#!^hole"; they're entirely avoiding the fact that Trump insulted an entire continent and has an overtly racist mindset. Frankly, I think they are intentionally focusing on the language; it makes Trump more relatable - hey, you hear worse language drinking with your buddies at the bar! Yeah, and if my buddies at the bar were saying racist things, I'd call them out on it.

Oh, and the answer to Trump's question "Why do we get immigrants from poor nations instead of Norway?" kinda answers itself - people from Norway don't want to leave Norway; people from Haiti want to get away from the poverty. Duh!
I'm in academia, and perhaps that makes some difference, but I don't regard that sort of speech as representative of normal people. I find it representative of aberrant and abhorrent people. YMMV.
Hence the quotes around "normal". At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man, I do believe that such speech has become more acceptable over the years.
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  #42  
Old 15 January 2018, 10:28 PM
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Well, I for one, don't agree with that. "Normal" people used to say racist, intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, and/or sexist crap all the time in the 1970's and 1980's. I think the younger generations are far less likely to say - or think - this kind of thing.

The big difference now is that a few people who still openly think that way are now in power. They didn't get that power from the younger people or because it's become more acceptable but because there was a, for the most part intentional, and concerted, long-term effort to push back on that progress. That effort paid off big time, partly because it was co-opted by people who wanted some part of it. These are people accepted racism because they wanted to gain from sexism or vice versa, whether they knew that's what they were doing or not. (We know many of them have no idea what these terms actually mean because when it's staring them right in the face, nothing: Blank stares and denials.) All of this was the intentional doing of those who complained about "PC" and "reverse racism" and so forth. They saw they were losing and they did something about it. Hopefully, though, it won't completely kill what continues to be the long term trend toward more tolerance, more educated points of view.

Last edited by ganzfeld; 15 January 2018 at 10:36 PM.
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  #43  
Old 16 January 2018, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
I hate the idea that 'normal' people are bigots. I suppose it means that non-bigoted people - or at least people who try to be less bigoted - are all fake. It establishes this idea that being racist is just an unconquerable part of human nature and anybody who tries to avoid racist language is lying or else 'not normal'.

I suppose being an immigrant yourself or simply not white is likely to make you 'not normal' according to this world view.

Oh, and people need to stop laying the disenfranchised majority bullcrap on so thickly. Yes, working class people are often overlooked, discriminated against and persecuted... but not like this. They aren't persecuted by the presence of immigrants or benefited by having a racist clown as president. It certainly doesn't give working class people a golden ticket to say and do whatever the hell they want or shaft other disenfranchised groups.
I’m getting tired of the asinine BS circulating about the Working Class. First of all, it’s almost invariably just about White men. Apparently women and PoC don’t work and therefore don’t qualify as part of the Working Class. Since they’re not, that means there’s no reason to address labor issues that affect them. I don’t know how pundits think women and PoC support themselves; they probably think we support ourselves via welfare and accusing innocent White men of sexual assault.

And the worst part of all the Working Class meme, is that the Working Class mostly went for Hillary; Trump’s base tended to be mostly White and upper class. And those who did go for Trump, didn’t vote for him over economic issues.

It all feels like a classist dodge, like the GOP are already setting up a scapegoat when everything goes south. When the time comes, they’ll go, “It was the poors! No need to pay any attention to the massive corporate interests that bankrolled Trump. And we’re certainly not responsible, because we caved like miserable spineless worms, rather than do anything. It was all the poor’s fault. Boy, those poor sure are stupid and poor.” The sad part is said strategy would likely work, because this country generally sucks at history.

There’s also the obvious: a guy who got his start thanks to a million dollar loan from his daddy, hardly qualifies as an ordinary man of the people. To be fair, this is a long-running meme with the GOP. They might as well make their party motto be “Where Sons of Privilege from long lines of Sons of Privilege, magically become Salt-of-the-Earth Jes’ Plain Folks.”

Of course the really irritating part in all this is how everyone continues to blindly support and reiterate the aforementioned memes. Even the Democratic Party goes along with it, keeping up with their longstanding tradition of being Republican-lite and conceding the fight before it’s even begun.
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  #44  
Old 16 January 2018, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
There’s also the obvious: a guy who got his start thanks to a million dollar loan from his daddy, hardly qualifies as an ordinary man of the people. To be fair, this is a long-running meme with the GOP. They might as well make their party motto be “Where Sons of Privilege from long lines of Sons of Privilege, magically become Salt-of-the-Earth Jes’ Plain Folks.”
I'm waiting for a Republican politician to unironically play CCR's Fortunate Son at a political rally.
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  #45  
Old 16 January 2018, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
And of course during the period in history when a large number of Norwegians were coming to the US, Norway was a very poor country, a country xenophobes at the time might have called a s---hole.*
Perhaps at that time it was poor.

Quote:
IIRC historically Norway had been one of the poorest countries in Europe until they found oil in the 1970s, at which point they became one of the richest countries in Europe almost overnight. If I understand correctly the Swedes and Danes stereotype Norwegians as something sort of like hillbillies with money.
Nah, that's not quite right. There were hardships following the war and Nazi occupation, but not moreso than a number of other European countries. And Norwegians make the exact same jokes, with Danes as the butt of the joke.

I don't think there's much reason to believe that Norway would have been much worse off than Sweden or Denmark, which don't have the oil resources.

http://sciencenordic.com/what-would-...hout-oil-money

My source is partly that cite, and also having a Norwegian mother who emigrated to the US as an adult, before the oil discovery, from a perfectly nice country on a par with many in Europe. I also lived there for a few years in the late 70s, and what you describe doesn't really match up with my experience either.
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  #46  
Old 16 January 2018, 05:19 AM
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I thought it was Denmark that had historically been the poorest of the Scandinavian countries, since it lacks any significant mineral deposits.
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  #47  
Old 16 January 2018, 05:33 AM
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It's too late for me to add this to my post above, but Norway had a higher GDP per capita in 1960 than the UK or the Netherlands.

Cites:

(Each page has the record low in 1960 at the top of the page. You can also click "max" to show a graph going back to 1960; note changes​ in unit marks at right when comparing)

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...gdp-per-capita
https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/gdp-per-capita
https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/gdp-per-capita
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  #48  
Old 16 January 2018, 05:25 PM
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie Dr. Winston O'Boogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Well, I for one, don't agree with that. "Normal" people used to say racist, intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, and/or sexist crap all the time in the 1970's and 1980's. I think the younger generations are far less likely to say - or think - this kind of thing.
Maybe I should have clarified - "normal" people say s***. S*** (and other curse words) have become more acceptable. I do not believe that "racist, intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, and/or sexist crap" is more prevalent now; thankfully it is far less acceptable than in the 70s. My whole point ENTIRELY is that Fox News is focusing on the "s***", and not on the "Africans are s***".

Great article in today's Chicago Trib: Africa is sending us its best and brightest

(synopsis - those immigrating from Africa have a higher % with advanced degrees and commit far fewer crimes than Americans in general) End of the article:
Quote:
Economist Edward Lazear suggests a simple experiment: Consider immigrants to the U.S. from Algeria, Israel and Japan, and rank them in order of most to least educated. The correct answer? Algeria, Israel, then Japan. That may be counterintuitive at first glance, but it’s easy to see how it works. If you are Algerian and educated, or aspire to be educated, your prospects in Algeria are relatively poor. A talented, educated person in Japan or Israel can do just fine by staying at home. These kinds of considerations explain about 73 percent of the variation in the educational outcomes of migrants.

In other words, Trump is not only being offensive, he is also quite wrong.
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  #49  
Old 16 January 2018, 05:37 PM
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I assumed references to Norway being historically poorer were talking about the 19th century, not the second half of the 20th century.
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  #50  
Old 16 January 2018, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
(synopsis - those immigrating from Africa have a higher % with advanced degrees and commit far fewer crimes than Americans in general)
Yeah, the handful of people I know who have immigrated from Africa have all done VERY well in this country, such as Harvard graduate who earns more than I can imagine, and spends a lot of time doing volunteer work. Oh gosh, please don't let more like him in!
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  #51  
Old 16 January 2018, 06:29 PM
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We have a number of people from Africa that work at my company. The ones I know are all wonderful people. They are, for the most part, refugees, and they have all worked hard here. One of the things I am proud of my state for is that we take in more refugees than most states, and tend to be fairly welcoming. I try to ignore the thought that a large part of that is that it increases the possible converts to the predominate religion.
So, yeah, screw Trump and his thoughts on immigrants.
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  #52  
Old 16 January 2018, 06:32 PM
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I'm sure some of it sincere concern for and even empathy toward refugees, based not only on Biblical injunctions re: caring for the stranger, the poor, etc., but also on Mormons' history as, essentially, refugees.

But I'm sure you're right about the other motive, too.
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  #53  
Old 16 January 2018, 06:57 PM
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I've use the word s**thole often.... when talking about actual latrines, outhouses, etc. There's not much mucking about when discussing an actual hole filled with human waste, or one that is being dug for that purpose



about the US losing goodwill across the world:

Haiti Accuses Trump of Laundering Money for Former Dictator 'Baby Doc' Duvalier
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  #54  
Old 16 January 2018, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I assumed references to Norway being historically poorer were talking about the 19th century, not the second half of the 20th century.
I'll stop hijacking after this, I promise. This was said in an earlier post,

Quote:
IIRC historically Norway had been one of the poorest countries in Europe until they found oil in the 1970s, at which point they became one of the richest countries in Europe almost overnight.
and when I searched for evidence relating to that claim, I saw many instances of others making the same claim, which is part of why I wanted to address it. The gist seems to be that Norway was saved from being one of the poorest countries in Europe by the discovery of oil in the late 1960s, which turned it into a super-rich country.

The reasons for immigration to the US in the mid-19th to early 20th Centuries may have included the population exceeding the food supply for some of that time, but there was not some inherent lack of resources or backwardness that destined the country to be poor into the latter half of the 20th C and beyond, had oil not been discovered. There seems to be little reason, or evidence, for thinking that it would not have developed similarly to the other Scandinavian countries, or Finland.

ETA: As the first article I posted pointed out, there are many theories about why countries may be consistently poor. I think Norway is privileged in a number of respects that made staying poor unlikely. To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest that Norway somehow is more deserving of being a rich country, or anything like that. Just that it isn't all down to an oil strike.

Last edited by erwins; 16 January 2018 at 07:41 PM.
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  #55  
Old 17 January 2018, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
I'm waiting for a Republican politician to unironically play CCR's Fortunate Son at a political rally.
I suppose shouldn't use a media critic as a source in a political discussion, but given how terrible things are...you need to remind yourself again and again that you are not alone. There really is something to the old Misery Love Company adage. Anyway, the critic is Nathan Rabin. For those not interested in clicking on the link, here's a small quote that sums it up fairly well.

Quote:
Trump has never known anything other than wealth and power. Then why are we continually asked to excuse his racist, sexist outbursts as representative of the "forgotten" working class man and woman Trump cynically pretends to champion?
Again, it is bad that the GOP keeps going with the "Jes' Plain Folks" strategy, but at the same time, can't fault them too much for it. It is working for them. They pretend that they're working class folks to get elected then once elected, they get to work screwing over the working class.

They wouldn't utilize this strategy if it didn't work and for some reason, the entire political sphere--pundits, Democrats, etc.--keeps falling for it, eagerly parroting the GOP mouthpiece.

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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
So, yeah, screw Trump and his thoughts on immigrants.
Agreed. I don't know if Trump has started on his shitty wall, but I wish there was a way we could write on the side facing Mexico, "We would rather have a million of you than one Donald Trump." We should also do something similar for all the immigrants and refugees coming in from countries Donald Trump doesn't like, because most immigrants work much harder and have so much more to contribute to this country than Donald Trump ever will.
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  #56  
Old 17 January 2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Again, it is bad that the GOP keeps going with the "Jes' Plain Folks" strategy, but at the same time, can't fault them too much for it. It is working for them. They pretend that they're working class folks to get elected then once elected, they get to work screwing over the working class.
I think when people are told they shouldn't - can't - represent themselves because it's Socialist when they do (where 'socialist' is used in about the same tone as 'devil worshipping'), it's not surprising that people settle for somebody from a privileged background who claims to somehow inexplicably represent them.

It's like a new version of the Emperor's New Clothes: The Emperor's New Working Class Connections.
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  #57  
Old 17 January 2018, 01:13 PM
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Read This!

The president just got a clean bill of health, both physically and mentally. Sure he's on some meds and could loose some weight but he's overall healthy. I dunno, is it possible to loose head weight? How much fat accumulates in the head anyway?
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  #58  
Old 17 January 2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Agreed. I don't know if Trump has started on his shitty wall,
Prototypes of the various styles are being built near San Diego.

ETA:
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Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
The president just got a clean bill of health, both physically and mentally. Sure he's on some meds and could loose some weight but he's overall healthy.
There is a fair bit of speculation that the President's height and/or weight numbers are wholly fabrications. Could be other medical results are lies too.

Last edited by GenYus234; 17 January 2018 at 01:25 PM.
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  #59  
Old 17 January 2018, 01:51 PM
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My Grandfather and his 2 brothers came to this country from Norway in 1911. Their family must have been relatively wealthy at one time as there is a coat of arms for the family that dates back to 1495. However, in his later years, my Grandfather explained that the fields were over grazed and it was very difficult to earn a good living. So the 3 brothers emigrated to the US.
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  #60  
Old 17 January 2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
There is a fair bit of speculation that the President's height and/or weight numbers are wholly fabrications. Could be other medical results are lies too.
His weight just happens to be one pound below the traditional BMI cutoff for obesity. Not that BMI isn't problematic, but that's pretty coincidental.

ETA: I don't doubt that he was 6'3" at some point, but my WAG is that most people are a bit shorter at 71 than they were at the peak of their growth.
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